It took me a while to realize. I'm a former SL parent who has been through Sunrise Valley, Hughes, and SL wi th 2 kids. Back in 2004, Sunrise was the nicest school in the Southlakes pyramid. High test scores, GT center, etc. All of a sudden, principal Christine Brogan announces her "retirement" in a long letter to parents. Most parents liked her and she was very approachable. No one saw her "retirement" coming. Usually word gets around earlier. But no one questioned since she was in her 50's. Out goes kindly Brogan, In walks flashy, take no prisoners Dr. Beth English who was about Brogan's age. Her only goal: fill up Sunrise Valley to the max. By the way, 5&6 grades are in "annexes". Most of the teachers left the next year and the atmosphere changed from a pleasant school to a prison. English hired a ton of inexperienced teachers lawithout or with very little teaching experience. This way she could control them. She doesn't want teachers to think for themselves. On the rare occassions I've been in the school, the teachers are Robots. Unhelpful,dictatorial, unflexible. English held a meeting with rising second/third grade parents and told them to either form a combination class or she was going to create the largest 3rd grade class imaginable. English's goal is to fill up Southlakes and English will do anything to make that happen. Teachers are gagged and not aloud to talke about even how the curriculum might be adjusted if need be. She only wants high test scores (understandable). Everyone used to stay at Sunrise until 6th grade and then make the decision to go on to Southlakes. Small class size and pleasant, open atmosphere with good teachers were the incentive to stay at Sunrise and worry about Middle School later. FCPS needed a very tight-lipped principle to follow the script since Sunrise is the prized posession in the SL pyramid. Beth English has taken over Sunrise; it is not the same school it was 7 years ago. Inexperienced teachers are preferred over seasoned teachers. Inexperienced listen to English. They all sound alike at that school. Exactly what Southlakes needs to attract middle class/affluent students from Sunrise area. Wolftrap transfers should take heed. English and the staff will surprise you when you get to the school. It will seem friendly and open until you are in.

EB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> English's goal is to fill up Southlakes and
> English will do anything to make that happen.
>

SLHS is a serious problem but Hughes MS is even more of an issue

Hughes continues to fail AYP despite a GT center and large in-school GT - the SOL performance is staggeringly bad. That's why sunrise is important

The Madison North seizure is all about Hughes - it just got little attention because it only affected Madison.

As a parent with a GT 6th and GT 8th grader at Hunters Woods/Hughes, there is a remarkable difference between the overall educational "experience" at HWES vs. Hughes. I have to say I was shocked at how many HWES GT students go to Rachel Carson middle instead of Hughes. Maybe 25 percent of his class went on to Hughes and it did seem that in sharing with parents (whom I have known for a few years) whose kids went to Carson, that they were in a more challenging academic environment than the GT kids who went on to Hughes. I have a hard time understanding why there seems to be such a difference. My kids are GT center so the core classes are nearly all GT center students. What gives? I really, really hate FCPS's "blame the children" mindset as it sounds like an excuse for not doing their jobs, so I won't accept that. Especially when the population includes HWES students that I know are good kids.

Neen-

I guess you need to define "Facts" for me. The only data that was presented that hinted that minorities are morally inferior came from teacher assessments which is subject to all kinds of bias.

The survey results of 8th and 12th graders actually show that Whites are the largest users of illegal substances. Is that immoral? Is a kid who smokes pot on the weekend less moral than one who doesn't?

There was no screening for Special Ed so we have no idea how many kids labeled as immoral are actually kids who have ADD or LD issues.

The report was garbage and Farling should be hanged in the village square.

dotdotdot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As a parent with a GT 6th and GT 8th grader at
> Hunters Woods/Hughes, there is a remarkable
> difference between the overall educational
> "experience" at HWES vs. Hughes. I have to say I
> was shocked at how many HWES GT students go to
> Rachel Carson middle instead of Hughes. Maybe 25
> percent of his class went on to Hughes and it did
> seem that in sharing with parents (whom I have
> known for a few years) whose kids went to Carson,
> that they were in a more challenging academic
> environment than the GT kids who went on to
> Hughes. I have a hard time understanding why
> there seems to be such a difference. My kids are
> GT center so the core classes are nearly all GT
> center students. What gives? I really, really
> hate FCPS's "blame the children" mindset as it
> sounds like an excuse for not doing their jobs, so
> I won't accept that. Especially when the
> population includes HWES students that I know are
> good kids.


Well, the elementary schools that send GT to HWES are Waples mill, Crossfield, Navy. None of them go to Hughes as a base school or GT center. That is dumb.

No complaints about Hunters Woods please since it is a money pit of extra funding for that magnet school. That money is in addition to stuff for staffing ratios which incorportate FRPM and ESOL now.

Maybe 400,000 plus about 50,000 for the magnet bus JUST FOR EXTRAS .

Same general numbers for Bailey's. What about focus schools in high poverty areas that are losing their funding? This is a perfect example of too much going to one site. Somebody email the hunters Woods budget over to the folks at Hollins meadows.

The incompetent school board members can't figure this out --- let the parenst lose.

dotdotdot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As a parent with a GT 6th and GT 8th grader at
> Hunters Woods/Hughes, there is a remarkable
> difference between the overall educational
> "experience" at HWES vs. Hughes. I have to say I
> was shocked at how many HWES GT students go to
> Rachel Carson middle instead of Hughes. Maybe 25
> percent of his class went on to Hughes and it did
> seem that in sharing with parents (whom I have
> known for a few years) whose kids went to Carson,
> that they were in a more challenging academic
> environment than the GT kids who went on to
> Hughes. I have a hard time understanding why
> there seems to be such a difference. My kids are
> GT center so the core classes are nearly all GT
> center students. What gives? I really, really
> hate FCPS's "blame the children" mindset as it
> sounds like an excuse for not doing their jobs, so
> I won't accept that. Especially when the
> population includes HWES students that I know are
> good kids.


the performance gap between hughes and carson is stunning

grade 7 sol

failure rates
math carson = 11% hughes = 57% !!!!!!!!
reading carson = 4% hughes = 15%
us hist carson = 2% hughes = 13%

advanced pass rates
math carson = 55%, hughes = 7%
reading carson = 68%, hughes = 45%
us hist carson = 71%, hughes = 47%


vdoe accreditation
english carson= 96%, hughes = 87%
history carson= 98%, hughes = 89%
math carson = 95%, hughes = 78%
science carson = 97%, hughes = 88%

no wonder the education environment at carson is more challenging

my understanding is that in the face of continued failure at AYP, parents have right/flexibility to move their kids out

I'm not going to lie. HWES has tons of extras that have to be fairly expensive to implement. Every third-grader gets a beautiful child-size violin and they take mandatory violin lessons, in addition to general music. They have a dance class with a teacher who only teaches dance, and they put on a dance show each year towards the end. And lots of art, including permanent projects like sculpture that is displayed in front of the school, or like the panda bear they painted that was displayed in downtown DC. I'm sure there's other extras. It's not fair, for sure, and it really is a wonderful school for those who can get there.

And then it all ends once they get to Hughes. I think in part it has contributed to the idea in the minds of the SLPTSA that if they could get some of those students that go on to Carson and then Westfield/Oakton/Chantilly, that they could get back to the kind of experience they had at HWES.

It's like being a "have" in a sea of "have-nots" and you don't even realize it until your child graduates to middle school. Seems like there has to be a better way to allocate these "extras" to be fair.

Sunrise Valley to Hughes is an even bigger realization than HW to LHMS

Wait until your boundaried over to Coppermine

I understand that if you want to pupil place into an IB school you have to be a full IB diploma candidate. How come FCPS does not require the same academic commitment for AP placements?

I know of a lot of kids who use AP/IB placements for sports. Does anyone monitor these kids to see if it is a shell game?

I bet half of placements are varsity athletes.

Just curious-

The failure rate at Hughes for math is disturbing. If they are getting GT center students from both Sunrise and Hunters Woods, why is the disparity so large?

It would seem impossible not to carry that deficit forward into high school. Being that math builds upon itself, and that mastery is achieved through cumulative knowledge, that kind of failure rate is devastating. More than half the Hughes students fail the math SOL and more than half the Carson students advanced pass the math SOL.

If only 7 percent of Hughes students can score a pass/advanced on the Math SOL, how will SLHS populate it's IB diploma classes?

I guess the better question is: What would you expect to see for SOL scores given the population at Hughes vs the population at Rachel Carson?

It still shocks me to see those scores. Maybe spend a little bit of that "extra" budget at HWES on improving math comprehension.

dot - if your kids were not GT, just average students, would you send them to hughes?

dotdotdot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I guess the better question is: What would you
> expect to see for SOL scores given the population
> at Hughes vs the population at Rachel Carson?
>
> It still shocks me to see those scores. Maybe
> spend a little bit of that "extra" budget at HWES
> on improving math comprehension.

I just don't get it. When the Arakelian ran for school board she talked about the quality of basic education - seemed to be a relative newbie to the pits and perils of FCPS. Gibson has been around forever - never criticizes instruction and curriculum - but does succeed in gathering resources . Gets the money better than most magisterial district board members but from there relies on the system to use it wisely.

FCPS needs a boot in the a$$ since it doesn't like efficient effective teaching for phonics and math. If after spending all that money on Hunters Woods/Dogwood and base school kids haven't been passing SOL's then it's time to reassess what's being taught .

Gibson dumps a lot of money into IB. Did any African-American student at South Lakes get a national Achieveent scholarship in the last 10 years? How many and what years?

Word:

Honestly, no. I would figure out a way to get them into a different school. And that's a terrible thing to admit.

dotdotdot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The failure rate at Hughes for math is disturbing.
> If they are getting GT center students from both
> Sunrise and Hunters Woods, why is the disparity so
> large?
>

theory: because the non-GT general-ed performance is even worse than the aggregate performance would suggest?

its hard to peel out GT performance but one could suspect that without the GT center, the school would have to be closed


although the fcps site doesn't break down SOL performance by ethnicity, VDOE does


grade 7 SOL

reading

advanced proficient fail
white 63 34 3
black 14 52 34
hispanic 17 54 30
asian 58 36 6

math

advanced proficient fail
white 11 45 45
black 5 25 70
hispanic 5 25 69
asian 11 44 44

word Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> dot - if your kids were not GT, just average
> students, would you send them to hughes?


clearly not - and many even think twice with GT

that's why the SB resorted to redistricting the Madison North community into Hughes

I just don't understand how these scores could be so low. GT sixth-graders at HWES have already taken the "Iowa" test to see if they are eligible for 9th-grade honors Algebra I next year. They must score a pass/advanced on the 8th-grade SOL -- which they haven't taken yet -- as the final test for eligibility. Nearly all the students in GT pass these two tests.

So knowing this, I am even more confused about the SOL scores reported for Hughes.

Although now that I think about it, since the GT students take the SOL tests in earlier grades, I'm not sure how they are reported. But still, this would be the same for Carson also, in that some/most GT students take the 8th grade math SOL in 6th grade.

taxpayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> dotdotdot Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I guess the better question is: What would you
> > expect to see for SOL scores given the
> population
> > at Hughes vs the population at Rachel Carson?
> >
> > It still shocks me to see those scores. Maybe
> > spend a little bit of that "extra" budget at
> HWES
> > on improving math comprehension.
>
> I just don't get it. When the Arakelian ran for
> school board she talked about the quality of basic
> education - seemed to be a relative newbie to the
> pits and perils of FCPS. Gibson has been around
> forever - never criticizes instruction and
> curriculum - but does succeed in gathering
> resources . Gets the money better than most
> magisterial district board members but from there
> relies on the system to use it wisely.
>
> FCPS needs a boot in the a$$ since it doesn't
> like efficient effective teaching for phonics and
> math. If after spending all that money on Hunters
> Woods/Dogwood and base school kids haven't been
> passing SOL's then it's time to reassess what's
> being taught .
>
> Gibson dumps a lot of money into IB. Did any
> African-American student at South Lakes get a
> national Achieveent scholarship in the last 10
> years? How many and what years?


To all parents, you must remember what this SB has done and what they have failed to do in over 100 schools that are failing there students.

Get them out in three years and elect people who care and have ideas on how to fix problems.

Starting a couple of years ago, the Virginia Department of Education told FCPS that it had to start giving students the math SOL test that matched the level of math they were being taught in school. Until then, some middle school students had to take two or more SOL math tests in a single year.

At the middle school level, that means that the 7th graders taking Algebra 1 only take the Algebra 1 SOL. Students taking Honors Math 7 are supposed to take the 8th grade Math SOL. Only the weakest math students in the 7th grade take the Math 7 SOL test under this relatively new system.

If you want to measure the quality of instruction for the more advanced math students, look at the Geometry SOL scores for Hughes, Carson, and other middle schools with more than 10 students taking Geometry. The Algebra 1 and Math 8 SOL scores will be a mix of seventh and eighth graders in most of these schools.

dotdotdot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Although now that I think about it, since the GT
> students take the SOL tests in earlier grades, I'm
> not sure how they are reported. But still, this
> would be the same for Carson also, in that
> some/most GT students take the 8th grade math SOL
> in 6th grade.

APorIBMom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Starting a couple of years ago, the Virginia
> Department of Education told FCPS that it had to
> start giving students the math SOL test that
> matched the level of math they were being taught
> in school. Until then, some middle school
> students had to take two or more SOL math tests in
> a single year.
>
> At the middle school level, that means that the
> 7th graders taking Algebra 1 only take the Algebra
> 1 SOL. Students taking Honors Math 7 are supposed
> to take the 8th grade Math SOL. Only the weakest
> math students in the 7th grade take the Math 7 SOL
> test under this relatively new system.
>
> If you want to measure the quality of instruction
> for the more advanced math students, look at the
> Geometry SOL scores for Hughes, Carson, and other
> middle schools with more than 10 students taking
> Geometry. The Algebra 1 and Math 8 SOL scores
> will be a mix of seventh and eighth graders in
> most of these schools.
>
> dotdotdot Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Although now that I think about it, since the
> GT
> > students take the SOL tests in earlier grades,
> I'm
> > not sure how they are reported. But still,
> this
> > would be the same for Carson also, in that
> > some/most GT students take the 8th grade math
> SOL
> > in 6th grade.

For the middle schools go to the end of course testing on school profiles. You can see each year the numbers that took alg 1, geometry, or even alg 2. These are considered high school courses and there should be a hefty % taking the tests of non GT center kids.

Here's a unique perspective on that new school board member Liz Bradsher. Hayfield was her school prior to South County. Guess what?

In the 2004-05 school year there was NO SOL test for algebra 1 administered to a student at Hayfield Middle school. That is odd since Bradsher and her coherts were always so hyperfocussed on the school - guess all they care about is location and new not academics. And that is what we have on the school board.

Stu Gibson [despite miplaced faith in staff and IB] is good compared to her. At least he's interested in academic achievement.

http://schoolprofiles.fcps.edu/schlprfl/f?p=108:18:3354478355999535::::P0_CURRENT_SCHOOL_ID,P18_TESTLEVEL:181,End%20Of%20Course

taxpayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > FCPS needs a boot in the a$$ since it doesn't
> like efficient effective teaching for phonics and
> math. If after spending all that money on Hunters
> Woods/Dogwood and base school kids haven't been
> passing SOL's then it's time to reassess what's
> being taught .

You do understand that the reading SOL given in 3rd grade (and other higher grades) doesn't test for phonics knowledge but for comprehension, don't you?
The PALS test in kindergarten looks at phonics.

Hughes MS spends about $7038 per student while Carson spends about $6093. Hughes has a higher percentage of SPED kids so maybe that is why the per pupil spensding is higher.

Since the Hughes principal gets paid $107k per year and will make $113k next year-you would expect better results.

They should pay her $80k and to earn the rest her scores would have to show improvement. I bet then we would see improvements.

Hughes vs Carson MS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hughes MS spends about $7038 per student while
> Carson spends about $6093. Hughes has a higher
> percentage of SPED kids so maybe that is why the
> per pupil spensding is higher.
>
> Since the Hughes principal gets paid $107k per
> year and will make $113k next year-you would
> expect better results.
>
> They should pay her $80k and to earn the rest her
> scores would have to show improvement. I bet then
> we would see improvements.

or you could just redistrict middle class white kids in - that's cheap as well

Well, I had hoped that there was some sort of comparison of apples to oranges in the Hughes v. Carson 7th grade SOL scores that would account for the differences. I figure that there are less Geometry SOLs taken at Hughes than Carson, but I wouldn't expect many to fail at either school. Could be wrong. I am still not understanding why the failure rates are so very different.

Let's just say they are moving the kids thru the system from Dogwood to Hughes to South Lakes. RD does nothing to fix the problem, it will just make it less obvious.

Too bad the students, SB and parents don't take more of an interest in fixing it.

word Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Let's just say they are moving the kids thru the
> system from Dogwood to Hughes to South Lakes. RD
> does nothing to fix the problem, it will just make
> it less obvious.
>
> Too bad the students, SB and parents don't take
> more of an interest in fixing it.


The Board of Supervisors seems to be asking a lot of Budget questions on the very conspicupus failures at Dogwood and Mcnair. FCPS also lied via ommission on one BOS question about the cost of redistricting since it omitted the difference between AP and IB as a future projection for the new to SL's students.

Dogwood should be doing better than it is. I don't get it- as part of the modified calendar there it appears to get a teacher not an aid or clerk full -time extra. Most of those modified calendar schools get a staffer not an extra real teacher.

I suspect Dogwood suffers from the modified calendar since students do not have to go to the intersessions. they get a lot of vacation when standard schools are studying in school in second semester. Here's a thought. What is the absenteeism at Hughes and South Lkaes during those intersessions?

What are Dogwood's attendance records and for what courses in the intersessions?

"I suspect Dogwood suffers from the modified calendar since students do not have to go to the intersessions. they get a lot of vacation when standard schools are studying in school in second semester. Here's a thought. What is the absenteeism at Hughes and South Lkaes during those intersessions?

What are Dogwood's attendance records and for what courses in the intersessions?"

There are how many ES in this county that are on modified calendar..2? Dogwood and one other school, I believe Annandale Terrace? Anyway, I wonder why Dogwood was chosen to be on the modified calendar while the rest of these schools in the Reston area are on standard calendar. What was the purpose of FCPS coming up with a modified calendar for some of the schools anyway? Does anybody know?

Baffled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>>
> There are how many ES in this county that are on
> modified calendar..2? Dogwood and one other
> school, I believe Annandale Terrace? Anyway, I
> wonder why Dogwood was chosen to be on the
> modified calendar while the rest of these schools
> in the Reston area are on standard calendar. What
> was the purpose of FCPS coming up with a modified
> calendar for some of the schools anyway? Does
> anybody know?

There are 7 ES on the modified calendar:

http://www.fcps.edu/about/08-09ms_es.html
these are the same as 2007-2008

And here is the explanation link:http://www.fcps.k12.va.us/Directives/P1345.pdf#xml=http://www.fcps.edu/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/webinator/search/xml.txt?query=modified&pr=public&prox=sentence&rorder=750&rprox=750&rdfreq=500&rwfreq=500&rlead=500&sufs=1&order=r&cq=&id=464be98c7

Folks, there is more to life than putting others down. Get over it. Lay off SL and go outside and enjoy this beautiful day.

It has little to do with the calendar. A large percentage of the students at Dogwood come from families with problems... financially strapped, single-parent, uneducated parents, parents who don't value education, etc.

If these kids are going to succeed they need special help and motivation - a radically different approach. As I said the SB seems content to move them thru the system (on modified or regular calendars) and call it a day. Occasionally, when their numbers become a large component of any one school, there is a need to add in some smart kids or break them up. That's why you have RD.

Baffled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "I suspect Dogwood suffers from the modified
> calendar since students do not have to go to the
> intersessions. they get a lot of vacation when
> standard schools are studying in school in second
> semester. Here's a thought. What is the
> absenteeism at Hughes and South Lkaes during those
> intersessions?
>
> What are Dogwood's attendance records and for what
> courses in the intersessions?"
>
> There are how many ES in this county that are on
> modified calendar..2? Dogwood and one other
> school, I believe Annandale Terrace? Anyway, I
> wonder why Dogwood was chosen to be on the
> modified calendar while the rest of these schools
> in the Reston area are on standard calendar. What
> was the purpose of FCPS coming up with a modified
> calendar for some of the schools anyway? Does
> anybody know?

Wow

I hadn't looked at dogwood's figures before - 48% hispanic, 40% limited english, 63%FRM

there's a failure of social policy (you get to pick your favorite) if I ever saw one

It is so irresponsible for these SLHS supporters to be in denial over the failing schools in their pyramid. Their primary concern is defending a reputation that is questionable to begin with.

The kids will be the ones who suffer. The SB hides the failures, the educators say they are doing a great job, and now the parents say what great schools they have.

word Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It has little to do with the calendar. A large
> percentage of the students at Dogwood come from
> families with problems... financially strapped,
> single-parent, uneducated parents, parents who
> don't value education, etc.
>
> If these kids are going to succeed they need
> special help and motivation - a radically
> different approach. As I said the SB seems content
> to move them thru the system (on modified or
> regular calendars) and call it a day.
> Occasionally, when their numbers become a large
> component of any one school, there is a need to
> add in some smart kids or break them up. That's
> why you have RD.


I don't buy that

The hispanic and african american communities have to step up to the plate and sort their own problems out (with tax payer help if necessary) - its not my kids job

Why is there such a huge performance gap between recent asian immigrants and recent hispanic immigrants? Presumably both groups start with a similar language and economic challenges

That's not something RD is going to fix

I'm moderately happy investing taxes and resources (e.g. the 40% resource advantage at SLHS) but not kids

Elephant:

I have to agree with you. Being on the inside I am familiar with this kind of attitude. They are just as adamant that things aren't fair for their white middle-class children because of so many poor unfortunate minorities that fail the SOLs and the morality tests. It is truly confusing to me but I don't spend too much time worrying about them after five years of listening to "it".

However, I cannot accept that the students taking the 7th grade math SOL at Carson are that much different (in any dimension) than those students taking the same SOL at Hughes.

And I would love to delude myself that the RD will help but I don't know anyone besides the regulars on this forum and in the newspapers who will be attending Hughes or SLHS next year due to the RD. I'm worried it will not work. At all. And then what do we do?

dotdotdot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Elephant:
>
> I have to agree with you. Being on the inside I
> am familiar with this kind of attitude. They are
> just as adamant that things aren't fair for their
> white middle-class children because of so many
> poor unfortunate minorities that fail the SOLs and
> the morality tests. It is truly confusing to me
> but I don't spend too much time worrying about
> them after five years of listening to "it".
>

unfortunately, 'they' are the tax payers and 'they' pay high taxes because they justifiably expect excellence in service delivery

at the end of the day, this area lives and dies by the presence and vitality of the middle class knowledge workers

if they feel that they're not getting a good enough education for their kids, they'll just leave and go elsewhere in the US or overseas - there are plenty of options

its a Richard Florida 'flight of the creative classes' thing

middle class knowledge workers are middle class knowledge workers because they value education - stick their kids in a school where people aren't learning or trying to learn and they'll just go somewhere else

Averaging down is a disaster


> However, I cannot accept that the students taking
> the 7th grade math SOL at Carson are that much
> different (in any dimension) than those students
> taking the same SOL at Hughes.

agree



>
> And I would love to delude myself that the RD will
> help but I don't know anyone besides the regulars
> on this forum and in the newspapers who will be
> attending Hughes or SLHS next year due to the RD.
> I'm worried it will not work. At all. And then
> what do we do?


Its not going to work because it doesn't tackle the underlying issues, just attempts to wall paper over them.

The SB has no Plan B and we'll have RD'd hundreds of kids for absolutely no gain whatsoever

Pointless debating this over and over. Smart people in reston has already figured it out - when their kids start high school, they have to move out of SL area. For the new RD areas - people can simply follow this rule. Send kids to middle school - RCMS and then either pupil place or move out.

'they' Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> The SB has no Plan B and we'll have RD'd hundreds
> of kids for absolutely no gain whatsoever

Not strictly true, the board does have a Plan B which they revealed at the hearing - continual county wide redistricting - keep everything in so much flux that the stats never stabilize and certainly saves having to fix anything

obvious solution Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Pointless debating this over and over. Smart
> people in reston has already figured it out - when
> their kids start high school, they have to move
> out of SL area. For the new RD areas - people can
> simply follow this rule. Send kids to middle
> school - RCMS and then either pupil place or move
> out.


The debate will continue as long as posters profess to settle the debate with conclusory statements with which many others disagree.

By the way, wouldn't that be "Smart people in Reston have already figured it out"? Picked up on that rule of grammar while attending one of the other "failing" Faixfax schools besides South Lakes that you casually denigrate.

At this point many of the South Lakes parents are probably prepared to have a moving party when the disgruntled RD families relocate to "safer ground." They welcomed you with open arms, and you repeatedly met that with insults and complaints. In the process, you managed to make many of us on the sidelines Stuart Gibson fans, and that's no easy feat.

NotSoObvious Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> obvious solution Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Pointless debating this over and over. Smart
> > people in reston has already figured it out -
> when
> > their kids start high school, they have to move
> > out of SL area. For the new RD areas - people
> can
> > simply follow this rule. Send kids to middle
> > school - RCMS and then either pupil place or
> move
> > out.
>
>
> The debate will continue as long as posters
> profess to settle the debate with conclusory
> statements with which many others disagree.
>
> By the way, wouldn't that be "Smart people in
> Reston have already figured it out"? Picked up on
> that rule of grammar while attending one of the
> other "failing" Faixfax schools besides South
> Lakes that you casually denigrate.
>
> At this point many of the South Lakes parents are
> probably prepared to have a moving party when the
> disgruntled RD families relocate to "safer
> ground." They welcomed you with open arms, and
> you repeatedly met that with insults and
> complaints. In the process, you managed to make
> many of us on the sidelines Stuart Gibson fans,
> and that's no easy feat.

I haven't heard anyone denigrate South Lakes but they have inquired why the performance is so low - a reasonable question I would have thought

The reaction seemed to be to accuse anyone who asked the question of racism

Presumably if you were on the sidelines and thought it such a good idea, you could have volunteered

I didn't see a rush of volunteers - I did see a rush of people pointing at other communities and shouting 'take them' (in particular Herndon PTSA)

"I didn't see a rush of volunteers - I did see a rush of people pointing at other communities and shouting 'take them' (in particular Herndon PTSA)"

And I heard that the Herndon PTA (or the Herndon supporters) people borrowed these fcps buses to ride to these town meetings and acted obnoxious! A poster recently said that the sb was talking about an eventual countywide redistricting. Not pretty consistent if Bradsher and Storck are so bent on getting South County a middle school or a wing instead of redistricting.

I was pleased with some of the decisions - the Madison Island never made much sense to begin with and they probably could have agreed years ago to be districted or redistricted into Marshall, which already takes some students from Thoreau, has more students from Vienna than Falls Church and seems to have stabilized. Now they can go to SL, hope they win their lawsuit, or put out their "for sale" signs. Lots of houses for sale these days, though. Sometimes when you throw your weight (or acreage) around too many times, it has a way of coming back to bite you.

No Madison Is An Island Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I was pleased with some of the decisions - the
> Madison Island never made much sense to begin with
> and they probably could have agreed years ago to
> be districted or redistricted into Marshall, which
> already takes some students from Thoreau, has more
> students from Vienna than Falls Church and seems
> to have stabilized. Now they can go to SL, hope
> they win their lawsuit, or put out their "for
> sale" signs. Lots of houses for sale these days,
> though. Sometimes when you throw your weight (or
> acreage) around too many times, it has a way of
> coming back to bite you.

The island was thrown to the wolves to protect the wealthy parts of Reston which attend Langley and boost Hughes

Entirely political, not rational - it didn't need RDing

volunteers Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> I haven't heard anyone denigrate South Lakes but
> they have inquired why the performance is so low -
> a reasonable question I would have thought
>
> The reaction seemed to be to accuse anyone who
> asked the question of racism
>
> Presumably if you were on the sidelines and
> thought it such a good idea, you could have
> volunteered
>
If you haven't heard anyone denigrate South Lakes, you either haven't been paying attention to this thread over the past many months or you only hear what you choose to hear. The tenor of the discourse was less than elevated.

Volunteered to do what? Just because my neighborhood was outside the various boundary studies doesn't mean I can't have an opinion as a county resident on what's best for the county and its students as a whole. I happen to think the RD process last year was flawed from the inception, but the tactics and rhetoric of the opponents had me cheering for the 10-2 vote at the end.

NotSoObvious Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Volunteered to do what? Just because my
> neighborhood was outside the various boundary
> studies doesn't mean I can't have an opinion as a
> county resident on what's best for the county and
> its students as a whole. I happen to think the RD
> process last year was flawed from the inception,
> but the tactics and rhetoric of the opponents had
> me cheering for the 10-2 vote at the end.


Damn - I'd always wanted someone to tell me what was right for my kids

If only I'd known, I'd have asked you - it would save me so much time

Any other specialities I should know about? advice on cleaning materials or choice of paint or how to tuck in the corners of bedding?

The only tactic that the 'opponents' had was to ask for a rationale that held water and a process which was fair and honest, and when they didn't get one they justifiably cried foul

entirely political Wrote:

> The island was thrown to the wolves to protect the
> wealthy parts of Reston which attend Langley and
> boost Hughes
>
> Entirely political, not rational - it didn't need
> RDing

I thought Langley was off-limits from the inception - one of the reasons this whole RDing process was so inflammatory.

Not sure that I can agree that some RDing for the island, though, didn't make sense -as I understand it, the students had very long bus rides to both Wolftrap and Thoreau, and Wolftrap at least has been putting classes in trailers for years.

Sorry for the Schaudenfraud (or whatever it's called). Maybe we'll both feel better if and when the SB actually takes a look at Langley for a change.

Interesting about Hunters Woods. I didn't know 25% attend Carson. Take a look at Sunrise Valley though. I know it's on the outskirts and doesn't get much attention, but that is where redistricting to SLHS will happen. It's close to Oakton/Vienna. It can grab a whole bunch of not so overly wealthy but highly affluent and educated who bought an old house at a premium to go to Madison. They are the next to go to SLHS and they know it. My house has always been districted for SLHS. I have nothing to lose and everything to gain by the redistricting. Sunrise is nice but not pretentious with a relatively low poverty rate. A bunch of houses on Hunter Mill who currently are at Oakton elementary are actually much closer to Sunrise. They are next. They can't all sell their homes and move out. Private schools are getting crowded.

volunteers Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Damn - I'd always wanted someone to tell me what
> was right for my kids
>
> If only I'd known, I'd have asked you - it would
> save me so much time
>
> Any other specialities I should know about? advice
> on cleaning materials or choice of paint or how to
> tuck in the corners of bedding?
>
> The only tactic that the 'opponents' had was to
> ask for a rationale that held water and a process
> which was fair and honest, and when they didn't
> get one they justifiably cried foul

I think the rapid escalation of your rhetoric proves my point. It would be one thing to challenge the fairness of the process and ask for a reasoned and well-informed decision-making. Many opponents of the RDing went well beyond that, however, in their early and repeated attacks on the South Lakes community. Perhaps you were not one of them, but the shrillness of your comments certainly suggests that you were.

By all means, do what you think are in your own children's interests - just don't ask the rest of us to provide a ground-swell of support by signing your petitions and contributing to your litigation fund, as the plaintiffs in the ligitation against the school board have done on their web site, when your own conduct was so consistently and transparently self-centered.

By the way, bleach is an excellent spot remover and post-laundry cocktail.

why move navy to Oakton? There is NO legitimate reason for it.

No Madison Is An Island Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I was pleased with some of the decisions - the
> Madison Island never made much sense to begin with
> and they probably could have agreed years ago to
> be districted or redistricted into Marshall, which
> already takes some students from Thoreau, has more
> students from Vienna than Falls Church and seems
> to have stabilized. Now they can go to SL, hope
> they win their lawsuit, or put out their "for
> sale" signs. Lots of houses for sale these days,
> though. Sometimes when you throw your weight (or
> acreage) around too many times, it has a way of
> coming back to bite you.

NotSoObvious Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I think the rapid escalation of your rhetoric
> proves my point. It would be one thing to
> challenge the fairness of the process and ask for
> a reasoned and well-informed decision-making.
> Many opponents of the RDing went well beyond that,
> however, in their early and repeated attacks on
> the South Lakes community. Perhaps you were not
> one of them, but the shrillness of your comments
> certainly suggests that you were.
>
>
WE ARE SORRY IF WE ARE SHRILL, OR STRIDENT OR NOT AS POLITE OR POLITICLY CORRRECT AS YOU WOULD LIKE, MR. OR MS. NOT-SO-OBVIOUS, BUT WE HAVE TO RAISE OUR VOICES AND MAKE OURSELVES HEARD LOUD AND CLEAR WHEN NOTHING LESS THAN OUR CHILDREN'S PREVIOUSLY BRIGHT FUTURE IS PUT ON THE LINE!!! HOW WOULD YOU LIKE IT IF ONE DAY YOU WOKE UP AND WERE TOLD THAT THE MAIN FACTOR THAT YOU CONSIDERED WHEN BUYING A HOUSE WAS IRRELEVENT? THAT YOUR CHILD COULD NO LONGER DREAM OF BEING A COUGAR LIKE HER BIG SISTER BUT INSTEAD WAS BEING REASSIGNED TO "SOUTH POND"? NOT VERY MUCH, I GUESS!!! YOU DONT HAVE TO AGREE WITH US BUT DON"T TRY AND STAND IN THE WAY BECAUSE WE ARE JUST WARMING UP, IF THE SCHOOL BOARD THINKS WE'RE ACCEPTING IT'S VOTE JUST BECAUSE IT HELD A FEW HEARINGS BEFORE IT MADE OFFICIAL WHAT IT HAD ALREADY DECIDED TO DO MONTHS BEFORE. NOT A CHANCE!!!

obvious solution Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Pointless debating this over and over. Smart
> people in reston has already figured it out - when
> their kids start high school, they have to move
> out of SL area. For the new RD areas - people can
> simply follow this rule. Send kids to middle
> school - RCMS and then either pupil place or move
> out.


There are very few ways you can pupil place out to Oakton (from SL): 1. have a child already at Oakton, or 2. if your student is taking Geometry in 8th grade, since Herndon High--the school you pupil place to if you say you want AP--doesn't offer Multivariable Calculus or Matrix Alg (which these students can take in 12th grade at Oakton). Also, neither SL nor Herndon offer Amer Sign Language and Oakton does. But, for the record, most FM families who will be going to SL in the fall (if the lawsuit doesn't prevail) seem to be ok with the situation at this point--not happy but ok. (They still are keeping fingers crossed for the Caps lawsuit) I don't know anybody who has agreed to go to Herndon for AP. At the same time, I don't anybody who wants IB. Most hope to push the AP agenda at SL.

NotSoObvious Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> volunteers Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > >
> > I haven't heard anyone denigrate South Lakes
> but
> > they have inquired why the performance is so low
> -
> > a reasonable question I would have thought
> >
> > The reaction seemed to be to accuse anyone who
> > asked the question of racism
> >
> > Presumably if you were on the sidelines and
> > thought it such a good idea, you could have
> > volunteered
> >
> If you haven't heard anyone denigrate South Lakes,
> you either haven't been paying attention to this
> thread over the past many months or you only hear
> what you choose to hear. The tenor of the
> discourse was less than elevated.
>
> Volunteered to do what? Just because my
> neighborhood was outside the various boundary
> studies doesn't mean I can't have an opinion as a
> county resident on what's best for the county and
> its students as a whole. I happen to think the RD
> process last year was flawed from the inception,
> but the tactics and rhetoric of the opponents had
> me cheering for the 10-2 vote at the end.


You have to be careful when you cheer for another's misfortune, because YOUR neighborhood could be next--and perhaps other communities will look the other way or even cheer like you say you did in the recent situation. You sound like a very uncharitable person.

what about Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> why move navy to Oakton? There is NO legitimate
> reason for it.
>
I understand that Navy wasn't an attendance "island," but doesn't this relieve some of the overcrowding at Chantilly and compensate for some of the Oakton transfers to South Lakes? Maybe some of the other Chantilly parents are happy with the reassignments, but too polite to say. Over 2600 students seems awfully large.

Huh? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> You have to be careful when you cheer for
> another's misfortune, because YOUR neighborhood
> could be next--and perhaps other communities will
> look the other way or even cheer like you say you
> did in the recent situation. You sound like a very
> uncharitable person.

I was cheering by the end because I was actually quite impressed by the maturity of the South Lakes students who defended their school and optimistic that perhaps the students who were reassigned to SL would end up having a positive experience and learn some social skills and compassion that their parents demonstrably failed to demonstrate. Sorry if you consider it uncharitable.

PROUD TO BE RIDICULED Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> WE ARE SORRY IF WE ARE SHRILL, OR STRIDENT OR NOT
> AS POLITE OR POLITICLY CORRRECT AS YOU WOULD LIKE,
> MR. OR MS. NOT-SO-OBVIOUS, BUT WE HAVE TO RAISE
> OUR VOICES AND MAKE OURSELVES HEARD LOUD AND
> CLEAR WHEN NOTHING LESS THAN OUR CHILDREN'S
> PREVIOUSLY BRIGHT FUTURE IS PUT ON THE LINE!!! HOW
> WOULD YOU LIKE IT IF ONE DAY YOU WOKE UP AND WERE
> TOLD THAT THE MAIN FACTOR THAT YOU CONSIDERED WHEN
> BUYING A HOUSE WAS IRRELEVENT? THAT YOUR CHILD
> COULD NO LONGER DREAM OF BEING A COUGAR LIKE HER
> BIG SISTER BUT INSTEAD WAS BEING REASSIGNED TO
> "SOUTH POND"? NOT VERY MUCH, I GUESS!!! YOU DONT
> HAVE TO AGREE WITH US BUT DON"T TRY AND STAND IN
> THE WAY BECAUSE WE ARE JUST WARMING UP, IF THE
> SCHOOL BOARD THINKS WE'RE ACCEPTING IT'S VOTE
> JUST BECAUSE IT HELD A FEW HEARINGS BEFORE IT MADE
> OFFICIAL WHAT IT HAD ALREADY DECIDED TO DO MONTHS
> BEFORE. NOT A CHANCE!!!

Don't worry - wouldn't dream for a moment of standing in your way. I want an unobstructed view to watch from a safe distance.

In the last couple of days, people have been talking about Sunrise Valley ES and Principal Beth English. She has effectively run the GT program there into the ground.

The good teachers have left or retired, for the most part. I do not have the inside scoop as to why, but it definitely happened.

She has not used the GT program to try to raise test scores, rather, she has done the opposite. Challenging "Engilsh" programs (how ironic that her surname is English), such as Wordlywise and Wordmasters disappeared from the GT curriculum upon her arrival. (Whether you want to argue if these programs are truly challenging is beside the point, they were far more challenging than what they were replaced with). My younger child suffered as a result, we have come to find.

She is very much a "No Child Left Behind" type of administrator. Maybe that is now required, but Christine Brogan would not have compromised the GT center in the way that Dr. Engilsh has. The students from Oakton ES and Wolftrap ES that make up the vast majority of the GT students are lucky that they will go on to Kilmer (GT) and Thoreau (middle school honors), they will be much better served in the Madison/Oakton pyramid than those student in the SVES/Hughes/SLHS pyramid.

Our older child had an excellent ES education, and Hughes did not totally fail him. Our younger child faced a declining emphasis on getting the GT students to the level that they should be able to attain.

As a product of FCPS schools who attended an elite university (MIT), I have been a strong supporter of the school system. The system is, however, broken to the point that I do not believe that it can be fixed in the few years that my younger child would remain in the system. We have decided to move our younger child into private school for high school. Call it a loss of faith that FCPS is able to help this child reach his/her potential.

My outlook on the chances that FCPS will remain among the elite systems in the country is so glum that we will be moving out of the county as soon as our children "fly the coop".

Headed to SL? Wrote:
-
> There are very few ways you can pupil place out to
> Oakton (from SL): ... since Herndon High--the school you
> pupil place to if you say you want AP...
> I don't know anybody who has
> agreed to go to Herndon for AP. At the same time,
> I don't anybody who wants IB. Most hope to push
> the AP agenda at SL.

Herndon is NOT the AP school that is closest to South Lakes - MADISON is.

ANY student within the original or new South Lakes boundaries may request AP Pupil placement to MADISON, but you need to do so very quickly. The deadline to file the High School Curricular Program Transfer Application is Friday, May 2, 2008.

Per http://www.fairfaxcaps.org/html/pupil_placement.html

- Parents trying to pupil-place out of South Lakes ARE NOT REQUIRED TO MEET WITH THE SOUTH LAKES PRINCIPAL.

- If a student is requesting a transfer for an AP program, the student must enroll in a minimum of [ONLY] one … pre-AP, honors, or AP courses per school year throughout their four years of high school.

-There is no grade-point requirement.

- Parents with older children already attending Chantilly, Oakton and Westfield report that there are no problems with pupil placing their rising 9th grade children in the AP programs at these schools.

I hear that the court date has been set for the CAPS lawsuit.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Headed to SL? Wrote:
> -
> > There are very few ways you can pupil place out
> to
> > Oakton (from SL): ... since Herndon High--the
> school you
> > pupil place to if you say you want AP...
> > I don't know anybody who has
> > agreed to go to Herndon for AP. At the same
> time,
> > I don't anybody who wants IB. Most hope to
> push
> > the AP agenda at SL.
>
> Herndon is NOT the AP school that is closest to
> South Lakes - MADISON is.
>
> ANY student within the original or new South Lakes
> boundaries may request AP Pupil placement to
> MADISON, but you need to do so very quickly. The
> deadline to file the High School Curricular
> Program Transfer Application is Friday, May 2,
> 2008.
>
> Per
> http://www.fairfaxcaps.org/html/pupil_placement.ht
> ml
>
> - Parents trying to pupil-place out of South
> Lakes ARE NOT REQUIRED TO MEET WITH THE SOUTH
> LAKES PRINCIPAL.
>
> - If a student is requesting a transfer for an AP
> program, the student must enroll in a minimum of
> one … pre-AP, honors, or AP courses per school
> year throughout their four years of high school.
>
> -There is no grade-point requirement.
>
> - Parents with older children already attending
> Chantilly, Oakton and Westfield report that there
> are no problems with pupil placing their rising
> 9th grade children in the AP programs at these
> schools.


My point/observation was that FM parents aren't interested in Herndon or Madison either. (Note to SL parents who thought it was racism that was preventing families from wanting to go to SL: there is no bigotry here--they don't want to go to Langley or Chantilly or Westfields either. For the vast majority of Rd'd families, it has never been about a dislike for SL.) Most are deciding to stick to SL when they can't get Oakton (which I'm sure the SB has anticipated.). I am not suggesting people are happy about this--but no one wants to go to a school where they know virtually nobody. The SB has made it very difficult for students without older siblings there to get into Oakton. Also, Bruce Butler will not sign your pupil placement form to leave SL (and you need his signature) unless you meet with him. He is very pleasant, it is not a problem.

Forum Reader Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Herndon is NOT the AP school that is closest to
> South Lakes - MADISON is.
>

That is true, but you can pupil place into EITHER the AP school closest to your base school, in this case Madison, OR the AP school closest to your place of residence, which for many of the affected neighborhoods is Herndon.

Thank you for a reaspnable argument

Back to Trashing SL Pyramid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Folks, there is more to life than putting others
> down. Get over it. Lay off SL and go outside and
> enjoy this beautiful day.


Now - there is another piece of reasonable advice...thank you...today is a beautiful day as well

NotSoObvious Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> volunteers Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > >
> > I haven't heard anyone denigrate South Lakes
> but
> > they have inquired why the performance is so low
> -
> > a reasonable question I would have thought
> >
> > The reaction seemed to be to accuse anyone who
> > asked the question of racism
> >
> > Presumably if you were on the sidelines and
> > thought it such a good idea, you could have
> > volunteered
> >
> If you haven't heard anyone denigrate South Lakes,
> you either haven't been paying attention to this
> thread over the past many months or you only hear
> what you choose to hear. The tenor of the
> discourse was less than elevated.
>
> Volunteered to do what? Just because my
> neighborhood was outside the various boundary
> studies doesn't mean I can't have an opinion as a
> county resident on what's best for the county and
> its students as a whole. I happen to think the RD
> process last year was flawed from the inception,
> but the tactics and rhetoric of the opponents had
> me cheering for the 10-2 vote at the end.


Apparently, you were not the only to suggest that the rhetoric of the anti-RD crowd was counter productive. While several/many would argue for the conspiracy theory, it just was not so, and several of the board members publicly stated that the rhetoric did not help the anti-RD cause.

PROUD TO BE RIDICULED Wrote:

> WE ARE SORRY IF WE ARE SHRILL, OR STRIDENT OR NOT
> AS POLITE OR POLITICLY CORRRECT AS YOU WOULD LIKE,
> MR. OR MS. NOT-SO-OBVIOUS, BUT WE HAVE TO RAISE
> OUR VOICES AND MAKE OURSELVES HEARD LOUD AND
> CLEAR WHEN NOTHING LESS THAN OUR CHILDREN'S
> PREVIOUSLY BRIGHT FUTURE IS PUT ON THE LINE!!! HOW
> WOULD YOU LIKE IT IF ONE DAY YOU WOKE UP AND WERE
> TOLD THAT THE MAIN FACTOR THAT YOU CONSIDERED WHEN
> BUYING A HOUSE WAS IRRELEVENT? THAT YOUR CHILD
> COULD NO LONGER DREAM OF BEING A COUGAR LIKE HER
> BIG SISTER BUT INSTEAD WAS BEING REASSIGNED TO
> "SOUTH POND"? NOT VERY MUCH, I GUESS!!! YOU DONT
> HAVE TO AGREE WITH US BUT DON"T TRY AND STAND IN
> THE WAY BECAUSE WE ARE JUST WARMING UP, IF THE
> SCHOOL BOARD THINKS WE'RE ACCEPTING IT'S VOTE
> JUST BECAUSE IT HELD A FEW HEARINGS BEFORE IT MADE
> OFFICIAL WHAT IT HAD ALREADY DECIDED TO DO MONTHS
> BEFORE. NOT A CHANCE!!!


Maybe you are shrill and strident and so forth because of your poor decision in buying a house based on school location. You seem to be intellgient and caring about the education of your kids, but in buying your house apparently you did not do your proper diligence.

Whether you believed, were told by your real estate agent or just wanted to believe it otherwise, the schools in Fairfax are county schools not your "town's" schools. As a result, and based on the county's growth and so on, the possibility of a change was always there, and there was NEVER any GUARANTEE of any entitlement to any particular school. If this is what you wanted, should have a considered a locality where such is the case or private school.

You may use other arguments aginst RD, BUT, I am sorry that I am not more sympathetic to using the "MAIN FACTOR THAT YOU CONSIDERED WHEN BUYING A HOUSE WAS IRRELEVENT (sic?)?" argument.

So, at least for this argument, don't blame everyone else for your screw-up.

Headed to SL? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>>
> Most are deciding to
> stick to SL when they can't get Oakton (which I'm
> sure the SB has anticipated.). I am not
> suggesting people are happy about this--but no one
> wants to go to a school where they know virtually
> nobody.

It wouldn't be the first time, and your kids will be fine either way. I was RD'd quite a few years ago to a Fairfax County High School that drew less than 10% of its freshman class from my junior high, and less than 10% of my junior high was reassigned to that high school. And the school to which we were reassigned had a "dangerous" reputation (i.e., code language in the 1970s for a 15-20% minority population). Within a few months, everyone had new friends, and the kids who transferred back to the old high school district were small and number and tended to kids with problems whose parents were looking to assign blame.

Your post was one of the first rational ones relating to the SD/Oakton reassignments that I've seen on this board in a while. Good luck - with such a reasonable advocate on their behalf, your kids are sure to thrive!

what is the date?

we'll see Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I hear that the court date has been set for the
> CAPS lawsuit.

Kmart Blue Light Special Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> PROUD TO BE RIDICULED Wrote:
>
> > WE ARE SORRY IF WE ARE SHRILL, OR STRIDENT OR
> NOT
> > AS POLITE OR POLITICLY CORRRECT AS YOU WOULD
> LIKE,
> > MR. OR MS. NOT-SO-OBVIOUS, BUT WE HAVE TO RAISE
> > OUR VOICES AND MAKE OURSELVES HEARD LOUD AND
> > CLEAR WHEN NOTHING LESS THAN OUR CHILDREN'S
> > PREVIOUSLY BRIGHT FUTURE IS PUT ON THE LINE!!!
> HOW
> > WOULD YOU LIKE IT IF ONE DAY YOU WOKE UP AND
> WERE
> > TOLD THAT THE MAIN FACTOR THAT YOU CONSIDERED
> WHEN
> > BUYING A HOUSE WAS IRRELEVENT? THAT YOUR CHILD
>
> > COULD NO LONGER DREAM OF BEING A COUGAR LIKE
> HER
> > BIG SISTER BUT INSTEAD WAS BEING REASSIGNED TO
> > "SOUTH POND"? NOT VERY MUCH, I GUESS!!! YOU
> DONT
> > HAVE TO AGREE WITH US BUT DON"T TRY AND STAND
> IN
> > THE WAY BECAUSE WE ARE JUST WARMING UP, IF THE
> > SCHOOL BOARD THINKS WE'RE ACCEPTING IT'S VOTE
> > JUST BECAUSE IT HELD A FEW HEARINGS BEFORE IT
> MADE
> > OFFICIAL WHAT IT HAD ALREADY DECIDED TO DO
> MONTHS
> > BEFORE. NOT A CHANCE!!!
>
>
> Maybe you are shrill and strident and so forth
> because of your poor decision in buying a house
> based on school location. You seem to be
> intellgient and caring about the education of your
> kids, but in buying your house apparently you did
> not do your proper diligence.
>
> Whether you believed, were told by your real
> estate agent or just wanted to believe it
> otherwise, the schools in Fairfax are county
> schools not your "town's" schools. As a result,
> and based on the county's growth and so on, the
> possibility of a change was always there, and
> there was NEVER any GUARANTEE of any entitlement
> to any particular school. If this is what you
> wanted, should have a considered a locality where
> such is the case or private school.
>
> You may use other arguments aginst RD, BUT, I am
> sorry that I am not more sympathetic to using the
> "MAIN FACTOR THAT YOU CONSIDERED WHEN BUYING A
> HOUSE WAS IRRELEVENT (sic?)?" argument.
>
> So, at least for this argument, don't blame
> everyone else for your screw-up.


I gotta ask this...has any one of the SB members with their own kids been affected by a redistricting in this county in their areas where they reside while they have been on board?..Certainly not this current SB. Kathy could have set her own example of redistricting from her own area since she has a kid at Chantilly. Is that right she has a kid currently at Chantilly?

IT HAPPENS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Headed to SL? Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >>
> > Most are deciding to
> > stick to SL when they can't get Oakton (which
> I'm
> > sure the SB has anticipated.). I am not
> > suggesting people are happy about this--but no
> one
> > wants to go to a school where they know
> virtually
> > nobody.
>
> It wouldn't be the first time, and your kids will
> be fine either way. I was RD'd quite a few years
> ago to a Fairfax County High School that drew less
> than 10% of its freshman class from my junior
> high, and less than 10% of my junior high was
> reassigned to that high school. And the school to
> which we were reassigned had a "dangerous"
> reputation (i.e., code language in the 1970s for a
> 15-20% minority population). Within a few
> months, everyone had new friends, and the kids who
> transferred back to the old high school district
> were small and number and tended to kids with
> problems whose parents were looking to assign
> blame.
>
> Your post was one of the first rational ones
> relating to the SD/Oakton reassignments that I've
> seen on this board in a while. Good luck - with
> such a reasonable advocate on their behalf, your
> kids are sure to thrive!


I too concur that despite the initial unease and polarization on both sides of the aisle, for those choosing and willing to give a move to SL a chance, in the end, this will likely prove to be a good experience academically, socially, emotionally and extra-curricularly for their kids. I think over time. this whole episode will show itself to become a non-event, like was the case in the past with other RD's, including the RD of some from Herndon to Oakton some many years ago.

Despite some of the "bluster" by some (probably a minority) about the school, even many/most of those that are deciding to pupil-place and have visited the school have admitted that the school seems to have a solid administration and teaching staff. For the most part, it appears that the SL visit has made a better impression on those taking the tour than the publicly portrayal by some.

> Whether you believed, were told by your real
> estate agent or just wanted to believe it
> otherwise, the schools in Fairfax are county
> schools not your "town's" schools. As a result,
> and based on the county's growth and so on, the
> possibility of a change was always there, and
> there was NEVER any GUARANTEE of any entitlement
> to any particular school. If this is what you
> wanted, should have a considered a locality where
> such is the case or private school.

Unless you live in Mclean or Great Falls, you are guaranteed the school of choice.

???? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Unless you live in Mclean or Great Falls, you are
> guaranteed the school of choice.


Was there a negative left out of this comment - I thought McLean and Great Falls were abou the only places in the county that are never RD'd?

Not So Obvious Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ???? Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > Unless you live in Mclean or Great Falls, you
> are
> > guaranteed the school of choice.
>
>
> Was there a negative left out of this comment - I
> thought McLean and Great Falls were abou the only
> places in the county that are never RD'd?

Sorry, yes - they are the only area (or schools) that are never RD'd. I think if they were included, maybe people would have not been so bitter against the RD’d. But they will never be touched!

> There are very few ways you can pupil place out to
> Oakton (from SL): 1. have a child already at
> Oakton, or 2. if your student is taking Geometry
> in 8th grade, since Herndon High--the school you
> pupil place to if you say you want AP--doesn't
> offer Multivariable Calculus or Matrix Alg (which
> these students can take in 12th grade at Oakton).
> Also, neither SL nor Herndon offer Amer Sign
> Language and Oakton does. But, for the record,
> most FM families who will be going to SL in the
> fall (if the lawsuit doesn't prevail) seem to be
> ok with the situation at this point--not happy but
> ok. (They still are keeping fingers crossed for
> the Caps lawsuit) I don't know anybody who has
> agreed to go to Herndon for AP. At the same time,
> I don't anybody who wants IB. Most hope to push
> the AP agenda at SL.



interesting, we'll need to pupil place out of Robinson for AP. Woodson closer to Robinson/Lake Braddock closer to our house. My son will be taking Geometry next year in 8th grade, so I guess we can use Multivar Calc to ensure Woodson as it doesn't appear to be offered at Lake Braddock.

This is from today's Fairfax Times. I for one agree with the closing that this system and board should have better things to do then focus their decisions on RACE and Socio Economics. I think too that the SLHS pro RDers should take that advice as well.

Wrong message
By Staff

For the better part of three decades, Fairfax County's public school system has been held up as a model for others to emulate. Whether the measuring stick involves standardized test scores, participation in AP or IB coursework, or pursuit of higher learning, graduates here consistently rank among the nation's best and are highly prized by college admissions directors.

Unfortunately, that reputation took a significant hit last week when school officials shared an in-house report detailing the character and morality development of its 170,000-plus students.

Using information culled from elementary school report cards, student surveys and school discipline rates, school officials crunched numbers and, stunningly, felt compelled to categorize them by race.

Rating kids by their ability to "demonstrate sound moral character and ethical judgment" or "contribute effectively within a group dynamic," the study concluded that white and Asian students performed better in those areas than did other minority groups as well as students with limited English, students who are poor and students receiving special education services.

After first hearing of the survey, two questions immediately came to mind. First, how were these determinations being made? More importantly, why were they being broken down by race?

To the first point, isn't the background of a teacher assessing a student's "moral character" just as critical a variable as the behavior itself? Perhaps the school system should first train teachers and administrators on cultural sensitivity before throwing every black and Hispanic student in Fairfax County under a big yellow bus. What is a second-grader from Bolivia to think when told she doesn't possess the "skills to manage and resolve conflicts" that her Asian classmates have?

By lumping race and character together, school officials have simply put more fuel in the tank of those who already take issue with people who don't look, speak or act like they do.

Perhaps we're oversimplifying things, but isn't it about time we viewed ourselves as one team and stopped analyzing every school-related issue in terms of race, gender or socio-economic status?

Last week, the School Board decided to wait until June to determine the future of this study. They should move on to bigger and better things.

Times Community © 2007 | Fairfax Times

WRONG MESSAGE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is from today's Fairfax Times. I for one
> agree with the closing that this system and board
> should have better things to do then focus their
> decisions on RACE and Socio Economics. I think
> too that the SLHS pro RDers should take that
> advice as well.
>
> Wrong message
> By Staff
>
> For the better part of three decades, Fairfax
> County's public school system has been held up as
> a model for others to emulate. Whether the
> measuring stick involves standardized test scores,
> participation in AP or IB coursework, or pursuit
> of higher learning, graduates here consistently
> rank among the nation's best and are highly prized
> by college admissions directors.
>
> Unfortunately, that reputation took a significant
> hit last week when school officials shared an
> in-house report detailing the character and
> morality development of its 170,000-plus students.
>
I agree the report was a waste of money and a diversion of energy and resources, but aren't you mixing apples and oranges when you claim that "SLHS pro-RDers" should take the editorial's message to heart? Seems pretty obvious that both some advocates and some opponents of the RD introduced race and socio-economics into their arguments, and the number of opponents who did so was not small.

Headed to SL? Wrote:
> ... The SB has made it very difficult for
> students without older siblings there to get into
> Oakton. Also, Bruce Butler will not sign your
> pupil placement form to leave SL (and you need his
> signature) unless you meet with him. ...


You are encouraged to email your pupil placement questions, problems and concerns to pupilplacement@fairfaxcaps.org.

They would be interested in any specific incident in which Butler refused to sign a pupil placement form and the reason/s why.

I haven't really heard the CAPS position on this SOCO school/boundary chaos. I think they are in an awkward position. If they oppose the SOCO middle school construction due to the fact that it is wasteful then they would have to embrace a boundary study. What if Mason Neck folks get sent to Mt Vernon? Would they defend the Mason Neck people? If they support a boundary study and a major redistricting occurs what will their position be?

I am curious how CAPS plans to exist in a post West County Boundary life??

CAPS position on SOCO Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I haven't really heard the CAPS position on this
> SOCO school/boundary chaos. I think they are in
> an awkward position. If they oppose the SOCO
> middle school construction due to the fact that it
> is wasteful then they would have to embrace a
> boundary study. What if Mason Neck folks get sent
> to Mt Vernon? Would they defend the Mason Neck
> people? If they support a boundary study and a
> major redistricting occurs what will their
> position be?


>
> I am curious how CAPS plans to exist in a post
> West County Boundary life??

There are some similarities and differences between SOCO and SL etc. as I understand it, and I'll admit I am more familiar with the SL issues. In the west boundary, the addition to Westfield was already built, and although Westfield is a very large school, it is not actually over capacity nor will it be in the foreseeable future. If there were to have been RD in this part of the county, it should have been done prior to building Westfield so large in the first place and if not then than at least prior to building an addition. Don’t' get me started on the Langley addition. And Oakton should have been left alone.

In the case of SOCO, the middle school doesn't need to be built nor does there need to be a SOCO addition. There are enough spaces in the area to accommodate all the students.

CAPS should support using the available facilities, not building additions where they aren't needed. That won't make the parents happy who feel that they are owed a middle school, but at least it would be a consistent position.

CAPS position on SOCO Wrote:
> I haven't really heard the CAPS position on this
> SOCO school/boundary chaos. I think they are in
> an awkward position. If they oppose the SOCO
> middle school construction due to the fact that it
> is wasteful then they would have to embrace a
> boundary study. What if Mason Neck folks get sent
> to Mt Vernon? Would they defend the Mason Neck
> people? If they support a boundary study and a
> major redistricting occurs what will their
> position be?

--------
I am not speaking for CAPS, but they seem to support rational processes.

Is it rational to say Westfield is "too big" and at the same time vote to add onto SCSS?

Is it rational to attempt to fill newly-renovated space at South Lakes, yet redistrict so many students out of newly-renovated Hayfield that this year there are over 650 empty seats (7-12)? And as a direct and predictable result, move so many students out of Hayfield and into South County so that it is over-crowded by over 400 (7-12)?

One major factor against the South Lakes redistricting is the AP/IB issue. Another is that families have long ties to their local high school, a high school families have visited for sports events and homecoming parades and craft festivals and fine arts performances and in many cases the graduation of older children. No family has yet built such long ties to newly-built SCSS.

SCSS (grades 7-12) is projected to be overcrowded by about 320 students in 2012 when newly-renovated Lake Braddock is projected to have over 600 empty seats. It would be logical to redistrict about 100 students per grade, including the west half of Silverbrook, to Lake Braddock, an AP school.

As for Mason Neck - look at the map, and remember the difficulty in commuting across Fort Belvoir. In addition, Mt Vernon is an IB school. A more logical solution would be to change Mt Vernon into a 7-12 secondary school and convert Whitman MS to a needed and nicely equipped elementary school.

Kmart Blue Light Special Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> PROUD TO BE RIDICULED Wrote:
>
> > WE ARE SORRY IF WE ARE SHRILL, OR STRIDENT OR
> NOT
> > AS POLITE OR POLITICLY CORRRECT AS YOU WOULD
> LIKE,
> > MR. OR MS. NOT-SO-OBVIOUS, BUT WE HAVE TO RAISE
> > OUR VOICES AND MAKE OURSELVES HEARD LOUD AND
> > CLEAR WHEN NOTHING LESS THAN OUR CHILDREN'S
> > PREVIOUSLY BRIGHT FUTURE IS PUT ON THE LINE!!!
> HOW
> > WOULD YOU LIKE IT IF ONE DAY YOU WOKE UP AND
> WERE
> > TOLD THAT THE MAIN FACTOR THAT YOU CONSIDERED
> WHEN
> > BUYING A HOUSE WAS IRRELEVENT? THAT YOUR CHILD
>
> > COULD NO LONGER DREAM OF BEING A COUGAR LIKE
> HER
> > BIG SISTER BUT INSTEAD WAS BEING REASSIGNED TO
> > "SOUTH POND"? NOT VERY MUCH, I GUESS!!! YOU
> DONT
> > HAVE TO AGREE WITH US BUT DON"T TRY AND STAND
> IN
> > THE WAY BECAUSE WE ARE JUST WARMING UP, IF THE
> > SCHOOL BOARD THINKS WE'RE ACCEPTING IT'S VOTE
> > JUST BECAUSE IT HELD A FEW HEARINGS BEFORE IT
> MADE
> > OFFICIAL WHAT IT HAD ALREADY DECIDED TO DO
> MONTHS
> > BEFORE. NOT A CHANCE!!!
>
>
> Maybe you are shrill and strident and so forth
> because of your poor decision in buying a house
> based on school location. You seem to be
> intellgient and caring about the education of your
> kids, but in buying your house apparently you did
> not do your proper diligence.
>
> Whether you believed, were told by your real
> estate agent or just wanted to believe it
> otherwise, the schools in Fairfax are county
> schools not your "town's" schools. As a result,
> and based on the county's growth and so on, the
> possibility of a change was always there, and
> there was NEVER any GUARANTEE of any entitlement
> to any particular school. If this is what you
> wanted, should have a considered a locality where
> such is the case or private school.
>
> You may use other arguments aginst RD, BUT, I am
> sorry that I am not more sympathetic to using the
> "MAIN FACTOR THAT YOU CONSIDERED WHEN BUYING A
> HOUSE WAS IRRELEVENT (sic?)?" argument.
>
> So, at least for this argument, don't blame
> everyone else for your screw-up.


What a mean and callous response. All across THIS COUNTRY people buys home after checking out the schools. That is a standard practice just about everywhere in America. At the same time, we know new schools are built and RDs happen. The recnet RD, which was so poorly planned and orchestrated (let's say it again--where is Langley?) that any REASONABLE person can rightfully feel screwed. While she may not be "entitled" to her pre-RD school, she had every right to "expect" her children would go to their pre-RD school.

Forum Reader-

What you say makes sense but you ignore the bigger issue which is of course the socio-economic rebalancing. Mt Vernon has sky high FRM numbers and according to past statements by SB members and Dale's henchmen that has an adverse affect on delivering academic achievement to the school.

Where is the outrage from the SB members?? Are you there Dan?? Dan?

concerned Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Kmart Blue Light Special Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > PROUD TO BE RIDICULED Wrote:
> >
> > > WE ARE SORRY IF WE ARE SHRILL, OR STRIDENT OR
> > NOT
> > > AS POLITE OR POLITICLY CORRRECT AS YOU WOULD
> > LIKE,
> > > MR. OR MS. NOT-SO-OBVIOUS, BUT WE HAVE TO
> RAISE
> > > OUR VOICES AND MAKE OURSELVES HEARD LOUD AND
> > > CLEAR WHEN NOTHING LESS THAN OUR CHILDREN'S
> > > PREVIOUSLY BRIGHT FUTURE IS PUT ON THE
> LINE!!!
> > HOW
> > > WOULD YOU LIKE IT IF ONE DAY YOU WOKE UP AND
> > WERE
> > > TOLD THAT THE MAIN FACTOR THAT YOU CONSIDERED
> > WHEN
> > > BUYING A HOUSE WAS IRRELEVENT? THAT YOUR
> CHILD
> >
> > > COULD NO LONGER DREAM OF BEING A COUGAR LIKE
> > HER
> > > BIG SISTER BUT INSTEAD WAS BEING REASSIGNED
> TO
> > > "SOUTH POND"? NOT VERY MUCH, I GUESS!!! YOU
> > DONT
> > > HAVE TO AGREE WITH US BUT DON"T TRY AND STAND
> > IN
> > > THE WAY BECAUSE WE ARE JUST WARMING UP, IF
> THE
> > > SCHOOL BOARD THINKS WE'RE ACCEPTING IT'S
> VOTE
> > > JUST BECAUSE IT HELD A FEW HEARINGS BEFORE IT
> > MADE
> > > OFFICIAL WHAT IT HAD ALREADY DECIDED TO DO
> > MONTHS
> > > BEFORE. NOT A CHANCE!!!
> >
> >
> > Maybe you are shrill and strident and so forth
> > because of your poor decision in buying a house
> > based on school location. You seem to be
> > intellgient and caring about the education of
> your
> > kids, but in buying your house apparently you
> did
> > not do your proper diligence.
> >
> > Whether you believed, were told by your real
> > estate agent or just wanted to believe it
> > otherwise, the schools in Fairfax are county
> > schools not your "town's" schools. As a
> result,
> > and based on the county's growth and so on, the
> > possibility of a change was always there, and
> > there was NEVER any GUARANTEE of any
> entitlement
> > to any particular school. If this is what you
> > wanted, should have a considered a locality
> where
> > such is the case or private school.
> >
> > You may use other arguments aginst RD, BUT, I
> am
> > sorry that I am not more sympathetic to using
> the
> > "MAIN FACTOR THAT YOU CONSIDERED WHEN BUYING A
> > HOUSE WAS IRRELEVENT (sic?)?" argument.
> >
> > So, at least for this argument, don't blame
> > everyone else for your screw-up.
>
>
> What a mean and callous response. All across THIS
> COUNTRY people buys home after checking out the
> schools. That is a standard practice just about
> everywhere in America. At the same time, we know
> new schools are built and RDs happen. The recnet
> RD, which was so poorly planned and orchestrated
> (let's say it again--where is Langley?) that any
> REASONABLE person can rightfully feel screwed.
> While she may not be "entitled" to her pre-RD
> school, she had every right to "expect" her
> children would go to their pre-RD school.


Don't mean to be callous, and am not sure who is the callous one here. You say that a person may not be "entitled" to that respective school, but have every right to "expect" the childrent to go the pre-RD school. That to me sounds like entitlement? And why does one have the "right" to such "expectations"? Based on what?

All I am saying that the policies are what they are and if you understand those going in, then you have to be prepared to take the risk. And where there is risk there is no guarantee.

One thing that I really don't understand is that everybody consider blacks/hispanics are minorities, how about asian? Isn't asian suppose be the minority of the minorities? How come asian kids never get any extra credits on any program?


WRONG MESSAGE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is from today's Fairfax Times. I for one
> agree with the closing that this system and board
> should have better things to do then focus their
> decisions on RACE and Socio Economics. I think
> too that the SLHS pro RDers should take that
> advice as well.
>

Kmart Blue Light Special Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> concerned Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Kmart Blue Light Special Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > PROUD TO BE RIDICULED Wrote:
> > >
> > > > WE ARE SORRY IF WE ARE SHRILL, OR STRIDENT
> OR
> > > NOT
> > > > AS POLITE OR POLITICLY CORRRECT AS YOU
> WOULD
> > > LIKE,
> > > > MR. OR MS. NOT-SO-OBVIOUS, BUT WE HAVE TO
> > RAISE
> > > > OUR VOICES AND MAKE OURSELVES HEARD LOUD
> AND
> > > > CLEAR WHEN NOTHING LESS THAN OUR CHILDREN'S
> > > > PREVIOUSLY BRIGHT FUTURE IS PUT ON THE
> > LINE!!!
> > > HOW
> > > > WOULD YOU LIKE IT IF ONE DAY YOU WOKE UP
> AND
> > > WERE
> > > > TOLD THAT THE MAIN FACTOR THAT YOU
> CONSIDERED
> > > WHEN
> > > > BUYING A HOUSE WAS IRRELEVENT? THAT YOUR
> > CHILD
> > >
> > > > COULD NO LONGER DREAM OF BEING A COUGAR
> LIKE
> > > HER
> > > > BIG SISTER BUT INSTEAD WAS BEING REASSIGNED
> > TO
> > > > "SOUTH POND"? NOT VERY MUCH, I GUESS!!!
> YOU
> > > DONT
> > > > HAVE TO AGREE WITH US BUT DON"T TRY AND
> STAND
> > > IN
> > > > THE WAY BECAUSE WE ARE JUST WARMING UP, IF
> > THE
> > > > SCHOOL BOARD THINKS WE'RE ACCEPTING IT'S
> > VOTE
> > > > JUST BECAUSE IT HELD A FEW HEARINGS BEFORE
> IT
> > > MADE
> > > > OFFICIAL WHAT IT HAD ALREADY DECIDED TO DO
> > > MONTHS
> > > > BEFORE. NOT A CHANCE!!!
> > >
> > >
> > > Maybe you are shrill and strident and so
> forth
> > > because of your poor decision in buying a
> house
> > > based on school location. You seem to be
> > > intellgient and caring about the education of
> > your
> > > kids, but in buying your house apparently you
> > did
> > > not do your proper diligence.
> > >
> > > Whether you believed, were told by your real
> > > estate agent or just wanted to believe it
> > > otherwise, the schools in Fairfax are county
> > > schools not your "town's" schools. As a
> > result,
> > > and based on the county's growth and so on,
> the
> > > possibility of a change was always there, and
> > > there was NEVER any GUARANTEE of any
> > entitlement
> > > to any particular school. If this is what
> you
> > > wanted, should have a considered a locality
> > where
> > > such is the case or private school.
> > >
> > > You may use other arguments aginst RD, BUT, I
> > am
> > > sorry that I am not more sympathetic to using
> > the
> > > "MAIN FACTOR THAT YOU CONSIDERED WHEN BUYING
> A
> > > HOUSE WAS IRRELEVENT (sic?)?" argument.
> > >
> > > So, at least for this argument, don't blame
> > > everyone else for your screw-up.
> >
> >
> > What a mean and callous response. All across
> THIS
> > COUNTRY people buys home after checking out the
> > schools. That is a standard practice just about
> > everywhere in America. At the same time, we
> know
> > new schools are built and RDs happen. The
> recnet
> > RD, which was so poorly planned and
> orchestrated
> > (let's say it again--where is Langley?) that
> any
> > REASONABLE person can rightfully feel screwed.
> > While she may not be "entitled" to her pre-RD
> > school, she had every right to "expect" her
> > children would go to their pre-RD school.
>
>
> Don't mean to be callous, and am not sure who is
> the callous one here. You say that a person may
> not be "entitled" to that respective school, but
> have every right to "expect" the childrent to go
> the pre-RD school. That to me sounds like
> entitlement? And why does one have the "right" to
> such "expectations"? Based on what?
>
> All I am saying that the policies are what they
> are and if you understand those going in, then you
> have to be prepared to take the risk. And where
> there is risk there is no guarantee.


Ir you're an adult (or even a teen) you should know the differences between entitlement and expectation. All that aside, most mature people can accept change that is fair and necessary. Since the recent RD was neither, it's hard to be accepting.

concerned Wrote:
>
> Ir you're an adult (or even a teen) you should
> know the differences between entitlement and
> expectation. All that aside, most mature people
> can accept change that is fair and necessary.
> Since the recent RD was neither, it's hard to be
> accepting.


I can accept the argument that some feel that the RD may not be fair or necessary, that is a matter of debate, but nver the less a reasonable argument.

I cannot accept the argument that I bought my house assigned to x school at some given point in time in a county school system in a dynamic geography with the "entitlement", "right" or even the expectation that it will forever be that way. There is no guarantee, therefore, the "I bought my house there for the school district" to me is not a valid or legit argument against the-RD, though it was widely used in this recent debate.

SOCO and SLHS similarities Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum Reader-
>
> What you say makes sense but you ignore the bigger
> issue which is of course the socio-economic
> rebalancing. Mt Vernon has sky high FRM numbers
> and according to past statements by SB members and
> Dale's henchmen that has an adverse affect on
> delivering academic achievement to the school. ...

---------------
Perhaps to you "socio-economic rebalancing" is the bigger issue.

It is true that Mt Vernon has the highest FRM rate of any high school in FCPS (50.4% in the most recent state data I have found) but Stuart at 46.8% is not far behind.

Mt Vernon has a significantly smaller percentage of ESOL students: 8.9% compared to 19% at Stuart.

Mt Vernon has 17.4% Spec Ed; Stuart has 15.5%.

Mt Vernon is larger: 1,758 compared to 1,546 at Stuart.

Both are IB schools and have been since the 90's.

Mt Vernon has 25.5% mobility; 24.32.

[For those who want to consider race: The racial composition of these two schools is similar: Mt Vernon is 57.3% Black and Hispanic; Stuart is 51.3%. Mt Vernon has more White students than Stuart has.]

Test results indicate:
Number seniors in June 2006: Mt Vernon: 315 / Stuart: 283
IB Diplomas awarded in 06: Mt Vernon: 15 / Stuart (a smaller school): 16
# Students who took one or more AP courses taken in 05-06: Mt Vernon: 1 / Stuart: 123
# who took SAT's Mt Vernon: 186 / Stuart (a smaller school): 187
SAT Average: Mt Vernon: 1511 / Stuart: 1557

It would appear that Mt Vernon might look at Stuart for some ways to improve.

Kmart Blue Light Special Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> concerned Wrote:
> >
> > Ir you're an adult (or even a teen) you should
> > know the differences between entitlement and
> > expectation. All that aside, most mature
> people
> > can accept change that is fair and necessary.
> > Since the recent RD was neither, it's hard to
> be
> > accepting.
>
>
> I can accept the argument that some feel that the
> RD may not be fair or necessary, that is a matter
> of debate, but nver the less a reasonable
> argument.
>
> I cannot accept the argument that I bought my
> house assigned to x school at some given point in
> time in a county school system in a dynamic
> geography with the "entitlement", "right" or even
> the expectation that it will forever be that way.
> There is no guarantee, therefore, the "I bought my
> house there for the school district" to me is not
> a valid or legit argument against the-RD, though
> it was widely used in this recent debate.


Kmart,

Just wondering--are you a parent? If so, have you naturally checked out schools before picking a place or buying a place? Parents do naturally graviate towards checking out schools when they look for a place, some would do researches on schools, others won't care whether the schools are good or not, but I am certain a majority of them naturally check out the schools before deciding ok this is the place where we want to live. Now with this RD mess, FCPS is sending a message to these parents that their schools are public schools not a choice of theirs anymore? Also homes advertised for sale such as on homedatabase do list schools.

>For those who want to consider race: The racial composition of these two schools is similar: Mt Vernon is 57.3% Black and Hispanic; Stuart is 51.3%. Mt Vernon has more White students than Stuart has.]


the aggregate figure you quote is misleading - the challenges facing hispanic and black students and underpinning poor performance seem to be somewhat different

mt vernon:
black 32%
hispanic 22%

stuart:
black: 12%
hispanic: 40%

that looks like a significant difference

Baffled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Kmart,
>
> Just wondering--are you a parent? If so, have you
> naturally checked out schools before picking a
> place or buying a place? Parents do naturally
> graviate towards checking out schools when they
> look for a place, some would do researches on
> schools, others won't care whether the schools are
> good or not, but I am certain a majority of them
> naturally check out the schools before deciding ok
> this is the place where we want to live. Now with
> this RD mess, FCPS is sending a message to these
> parents that their schools are public schools not
> a choice of theirs anymore? Also homes advertised
> for sale such as on homedatabase do list schools.

I think KMart's point is that it's a bit of a contradiction in terms to suggest that the School Board should "keep its hands off" public schools and pretend they are all somehow neighborhood charter schools. One parent's expectation that the SB will not, without good reason, redistrict his or her child has to be balanced with another parent's expectation that the SB will, for good reason, make adjustments to boundaries to strengthen his or her child's school.

For sure, realtors play up some school districts, but there are as many good schools that aren't played up as there are good restaurants that don't get a rave review in Zagat's.

The only broad consensus I can see emerging from the recent redistricting is that the SB's process this last go-around was deeply flawed, took out of consideration districts that properly should have been part of the analysis if one was to be undertaken, and virtually invited criticism from the start. Many of us think, however, that the criticisms directed towards the SL community, in particular, were mean-spirited and excessive. My own hope, in the interests of the students, is that it all sorts itself out by the end of the school year, and the School Board does a much better job the next time it approaches the subject.

figures Wrote:
> ...the challenges facing hispanic and black students and
> underpinning poor performance seem to be somewhat different. ...

---------------
Feel free to elaborate but I am not going in that direction with you. The posters on this thread have been trying to avoid discussions of race, especially with the current mess the school board has on its hands. Special Ed and FRM issues in regards to redistricting are contentious enough without going into "the challenges facing hispanic and black students and underpinning poor performance."

It is understood that in a growing area schools will sometimes need to be redistricted. Fairly recently, the Floris community reluctantly accepted such a redistricting from Oakton to Westfield. They requested and received grandfathering of current students and sibling placement. Nobody really liked it, but there was a new school opening and Oakton was overcrowded.

With this RD, there is no new school. Westfield is slightly over capacity, but less so than for the last 5 years. The new addition is not completely open yet.

We have been kicked out of Westfield because Stuart Gibson wanted to fill empty seats at South Lakes by making empty seats at Westfield.

There is no guiding principle that has been used elsewhere. It is a "just because we feel like it" redistricting. It is very much resented.


Not So Obvious Wrote:

> I think KMart's point is that it's a bit of a
> contradiction in terms to suggest that the School
> Board should "keep its hands off" public schools
> and pretend they are all somehow neighborhood
> charter schools. One parent's expectation that
> the SB will not, without good reason, redistrict
> his or her child has to be balanced with another
> parent's expectation that the SB will, for good
> reason, make adjustments to boundaries to
> strengthen his or her child's school.

WestfieldMom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We have been kicked out of Westfield because
> Stuart Gibson wanted to fill empty seats at South
> Lakes by making empty seats at Westfield.
>
> There is no guiding principle that has been used
> elsewhere. It is a "just because we feel like it"
> redistricting. It is very much resented.
>
>
I am sympathetic (up to the point where some of the affected parents, and you don't seem to be one of them, started to trash South Lakes), and not trying to bait you, but if it was just Stuart Gibson who wanted this to happen, why do you think the changes were approved by a 10-2 vote?

It does seem to me that if your area had only recently been redistricted from Oakton to Westfield, the SB should have given far more thought to reallocating students from Herndon or Langley to SL before they RD'd you again in relatively short order.

Not So Obvious Wrote:
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> I am sympathetic (up to the point where some of
> the affected parents, and you don't seem to be one
> of them, started to trash South Lakes), and not
> trying to bait you, but if it was just Stuart
> Gibson who wanted this to happen, why do you think
> the changes were approved by a 10-2 vote?
>
A very naive question. This SB is full of the "You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" mentality, and they all have their own agenda. Funny how the 2 votes against were from new at-large members.

SBS Wrote:
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> A very naive question. This SB is full of the
> "You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours"
> mentality, and they all have their own agenda.
> Funny how the 2 votes against were from new
> at-large members.

It's actually nice to be called naive rather than cynical or jaded once in a while, but I tend to think the most naive here are the parents who assumed, based on their expectation or entitlement or whatever, that they'd never get RDed in a county-wide system.

However, if you can emerge from the bunker long enough to explain, what are the agendas of the other SB members, oh wise one?

did anyone see the stats in the herndon connection paper about the budget?

basically, we have increased the county budget by about 1 BILLION dollars in 7 years and most of that 1 BILLION has gone to the schools. In 2001 each student cost the county about $9,100 and in 2008-about $13,500. Approximately a 44% increase in 7 years!!!!

i sure wish my income increased at that rate! What are they spending the money on? The more money tax payers give them, the more they will spend. I bet a county wide private school system would budget their dollars much better. The more you give, the more they want...it's called big government


















i

They spend taking trips to Europe and paying IBO to support IB. No one except these officials like IB. AP is cheaper and better and in interest of the students.

BILLIONAIRE Wrote:
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> did anyone see the stats in the herndon connection
> paper about the budget?
>
> basically, we have increased the county budget by
> about 1 BILLION dollars in 7 years and most of
> that 1 BILLION has gone to the schools. In 2001
> each student cost the county about $9,100 and in
> 2008-about $13,500. Approximately a 44% increase
> in 7 years!!!!
>
> i sure wish my income increased at that rate!
> What are they spending the money on? The more
> money tax payers give them, the more they will
> spend. I bet a county wide private school system
> would budget their dollars much better. The more
> you give, the more they want...it's called big
> government
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> i

Not So Obvious Wrote:
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> It's actually nice to be called naive rather than
> cynical or jaded once in a while, but I tend to
> think the most naive here are the parents who
> assumed, based on their expectation or entitlement
> or whatever, that they'd never get RDed in a
> county-wide system.
>
> However, if you can emerge from the bunker long
> enough to explain, what are the agendas of the
> other SB members, oh wise one?

Glad I could please you oh naive one. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the bulk of the non-at-large SB members care about their own little corner of the county first, and the rest be damned. Just look at some of the posts about Bradsher for example.

The entire redistricting process was Gibson's pet project. He wanted to improve SL (or more accurately SL test scores, since the redistricting will offer absolutely no real improvement) at any cost, w/o any regard for some of his other constituents, namely Fox Mill and Floris. The SB members whose districts were not affected voted in favor of it as much as anything so as not to piss off Gibson. They might need his vote to advance their own agenda in the future.

I witnessed their self-serving mentality first hand. I can't remember which member it is that represents Herndon, but at one of the SB work sessions, she cast her vote one way, then reversed it after a couple of Herndon parents told her to. At least Herndon has representation, which is more than can be said for the redistricted areas under Gibson's perview.

Sunrise Valley's GTC also is known as one of the few in FCPS where the principal refuses to allow the teachers to register for any academic competitions. Then relatively few students qualify to take Algebra 1 in 7th grade. The Forest Edge GTC is superior in multiple respects.

Spending my child's college money on Wrote:
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> In the last couple of days, people have been
> talking about Sunrise Valley ES and Principal Beth
> English. She has effectively run the GT program
> there into the ground.
>
> The good teachers have left or retired, for the
> most part. I do not have the inside scoop as to
> why, but it definitely happened.
>
> She has not used the GT program to try to raise
> test scores, rather, she has done the opposite.
> Challenging "Engilsh" programs (how ironic that
> her surname is English), such as Wordlywise and
> Wordmasters disappeared from the GT curriculum
> upon her arrival. (Whether you want to argue if
> these programs are truly challenging is beside the
> point, they were far more challenging than what
> they were replaced with). My younger child
> suffered as a result, we have come to find.

The FCPS website itself gives exact guidelines on how to pick the neighborhood and school you wish to attend. Of course that is a gigantic factor into picking where you live.............


> >
> > Maybe you are shrill and strident and so forth
> > because of your poor decision in buying a house
> > based on school location. You seem to be
> > intellgient and caring about the education of
> your
> > kids, but in buying your house apparently you
> did
> > not do your proper diligence.
> >
> > Whether you believed, were told by your real
> > estate agent or just wanted to believe it
> > otherwise, the schools in Fairfax are county
> > schools not your "town's" schools. As a
> result,
> > and based on the county's growth and so on, the
> > possibility of a change was always there, and
> > there was NEVER any GUARANTEE of any
> entitlement
> > to any particular school. If this is what you
> > wanted, should have a considered a locality
> where
> > such is the case or private school.
> >
> > You may use other arguments aginst RD, BUT, I
> am
> > sorry that I am not more sympathetic to using
> the
> > "MAIN FACTOR THAT YOU CONSIDERED WHEN BUYING A
> > HOUSE WAS IRRELEVENT (sic?)?" argument.
> >
> > So, at least for this argument, don't blame
> > everyone else for your screw-up.
>
>
> What a mean and callous response. All across THIS
> COUNTRY people buys home after checking out the
> schools. That is a standard practice just about
> everywhere in America. At the same time, we know
> new schools are built and RDs happen. The recnet
> RD, which was so poorly planned and orchestrated
> (let's say it again--where is Langley?) that any
> REASONABLE person can rightfully feel screwed.
> While she may not be "entitled" to her pre-RD
> school, she had every right to "expect" her
> children would go to their pre-RD school.

To back up the argument about parents having the choice of schools for their children, I copied the statement from the FCPS website:

"How to Find the Right School
Ideas for researching the school that best meets the needs of your child."


So what is the hell is going on with these people telling these RD'ed families that these schools do not belong to them, but rather to the SB??