Seriously, are you considering letting this county go $232M further in debt when it has clearly demonstrated an unwillingness to excercise the smallest amount of fiscal restraint? Spare me the "for the kids" argument, because if you cared about the kids, you wouldn't hand them a county riddled with debt. Each bond passed in this county means that each year the county is spending a larger percentage of its school budget on debt service and not education.

BAHHHHHHHHH....OMG....MMMM....YES YES YESSSSSSS.....BAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

TEH SKOOL BORED MUST GO!!!!111!!!!1!!!!

Blessed are the murderous.

This is Jack Dale's fault!

BAAAAAAAAA!!!

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

MrMephisto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is Jack Dale's fault!
>
> BAAAAAAAAA!!!


I'm actually not trying to start a school board fight. I never have and never will have children in the school system, so I could give a shit. I am more amazed that voters in this county keep giving money year after year to this school system.

People that call others "sheeple" are usually the ones that listen to U2, hang out at the Apple store, and congregate at Starbucks in between their bicycle rides.

I've lived in Fairfax County (and have voted in every election - whether federal, state, or local) since 1973 and do not recall the public ever having voted down either a school bond or a park bond; they typically prevail by as much as 70-80% of the vote. Same will happen this year. Not that it matters here, but I have not voted "yes" on any school or park bond. ... and I do have two kids who were schooled in Fairfax County.

murdstone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ... and I do have two
> kids who were schooled in Fairfax County.

Lots of schooling going on around here.

So, how else should they finance repairs/renovations of schools that are a mess? My son's going to school in a 50 y.o. school building that looks exactly the same as it did when I went there (down to the bathroom fixtures) some 30 years ago. Of course, it's not even in the queue or on the list of schools to be renovated. I guess a school must be 60-100 years old to qualify? When I went to school in FFX, I recall having trash cans in rooms to catch the water leaking in from the roof. I can only imagine what some of these schools are like now - does the HVAC work? Are they wired to help our kids be successful in the 21st century?

Without these bonds or some serious restructuring of the school systems budgets, our kids will continue to suffer by attending schools that were built in the 20th century or rat infested trailers...and we live in one of the most affluent counties in this country? Something's very wrong with this picture.

There are multiple school bonds that have been approved by the voters but not sold on the bond market in order to stay under a cap of total indebtedness that assures the County a AAA rating and lower interest rates.

The bonds remain unsold for years waiting their turn to go on sale.

Voting down this year's bond to send a message would have no impact on school renovation for a decade or more.

What's wrong with the picture is a school administration that does care about the kids or education but is obsessed with perpetuating their own comforts, income and perquisites.

as long as the promise of "well you dont have to pay it per se..." then they will keep being "bought"


"the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

OldSchool Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Without these bonds or some serious restructuring
> of the school systems budgets, our kids will
> continue to suffer by attending schools that were
> built in the 20th century or rat infested
> trailers...and we live in one of the most affluent
> counties in this country? Something's very wrong
> with this picture.

With these bonds, the county and the school board have the luxury of never having to restructure the budgets.

The problem with these bond referendums is that people mistakenly believe they are voting for the project, not for how it is funded. The project is already planned and approved, or they wouldn't be able to hold the referendum on using debt to fund it.

Voting for a bond referendum is VOTING TO USE DEBT TO FUND a project that, if voted down, would be paid for from the general funds in the budget. Voting NO does not kill the project, it just forces the county to find the money in it's budget. Without debt, they'll cut wasteful programs and delay unecessary things in order to deal with the necessary and prudent projects and services.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
The function of conservatives is not to meet every liberal program or scheme with a denunciation or a destructive counterscheme, but rather to weigh its advantages and defects, supporting the first and challenging the second. A declaration of ideological warfare against liberalism is by its nature profoundly unconservative. It meets perceived radicalism with a counterradicalism of its own.

Voting for a bond referendum is not actually voting to use debt to fund A PROJECT. The School Board did a bait and switch on voters with the Graham Road Elementary renovation. They voted yes to renovate Graham Road and then the Board decided NOT to renovate the current Graham Road and is using the money elsewhere. There is a lawsuit headed for higher courts on the issue right now. This is what we are getting from the current School Board. We need to postpone building of new buildings for a couple of years until the deficit is under control.

The economy's in a shithole. No taxes, no funding, no public construction projects, whether roads, schools, or whatever. Let's take a siesta on this shit for year or so.

Even if "voting down this year's bond to send a message would have no impact on school renovation for a decade or more," big f'ing deal. We've got to start voting down bonds sometime; otherwise, in a decade or more we'll still be bitching about it.

By the way, there is a simple reason the kids are in trailers and its not lack of space. They divided the County up into indvidual districts and most of the different Board Members (a couple are At Large Board Members) are responsible for a particular district. Instead of looking at overcrowding issues from a COUNTYWIDE perspective, trying to keep kids as close to their own schools and filling all the surplus space (and there is plenty of it!), they are busing kids all over the damn place for reasons having NOTHING to do with space but then it CREATES space issues. There is an article out there where Tina Hone (one of their own At Large Board Members said they need to look at everything from a countywide perspective). They just use the kids like pieces on a chess board moving them all over to suit their own agenda and then we foot the bill! If you don't believe me just look at the boundary maps and how RIDICULOUS some of the boundaries are. Wake up people!

Good post, Sammy. One of the reasons they re-shuffle the boundaries is to improve the statistics and hide problematic schools by sending 'bad' kids (read: from poor hoods/projects) to schools located in better (read: richer) heighborhoods. This way no one in charge looks bad. Then good schools become overcrowded, so they want to build extra at the expense of those kids who will be taxpayers when it's time to repay the bonds. In a meantime, extra schools will require extra $$ for maintenance, and the spending rises another round... etc, etc.

Doggone It Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Even if "voting down this year's bond to send a
> message would have no impact on school renovation
> for a decade or more," big f'ing deal. We've got
> to start voting down bonds sometime; otherwise, in
> a decade or more we'll still be bitching about it.

You have to stop believing that bond referendums control whether renovations or new building occurs.

The bond referendum is a vote on whether or not to issue bonds to pay for something that IS GOING TO HAPPEN one way or the other. Voting yes means you approve of loading up on debt, voting no means you want the county to pay for the project with existing money. It has nothing to do with your feelings about the project itself.

The bonds should be voted down because the county needs to operate from within their budgets, paying for things through general funds.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
The function of conservatives is not to meet every liberal program or scheme with a denunciation or a destructive counterscheme, but rather to weigh its advantages and defects, supporting the first and challenging the second. A declaration of ideological warfare against liberalism is by its nature profoundly unconservative. It meets perceived radicalism with a counterradicalism of its own.

Thurston Moore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Doggone It Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Even if "voting down this year's bond to send a
> > message would have no impact on school
> renovation
> > for a decade or more," big f'ing deal. We've
> got
> > to start voting down bonds sometime; otherwise,
> in
> > a decade or more we'll still be bitching about
> it.
>
> You have to stop believing that bond referendums
> control whether renovations or new building
> occurs.
>
> The bond referendum is a vote on whether or not to
> issue bonds to pay for something that IS GOING TO
> HAPPEN one way or the other. Voting yes means you
> approve of loading up on debt, voting no means you
> want the county to pay for the project with
> existing money. It has nothing to do with your
> feelings about the project itself.
>
> The bonds should be voted down because the county
> needs to operate from within their budgets, paying
> for things through general funds.


Ridiculous economic theory that would have us all living in caves if followed by all.

Registered Voter...a Big talking coward..big man on FFXU...little man in life.

OldSchool Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So, how else should they finance
> repairs/renovations of schools that are a mess?
> My son's going to school in a 50 y.o. school
> building that looks exactly the same as it did
> when I went there (down to the bathroom fixtures)
> some 30 years ago. Of course, it's not even in
> the queue or on the list of schools to be
> renovated. I guess a school must be 60-100 years
> old to qualify? When I went to school in FFX, I
> recall having trash cans in rooms to catch the
> water leaking in from the roof. I can only imagine
> what some of these schools are like now - does the
> HVAC work? Are they wired to help our kids be
> successful in the 21st century?
>
> Without these bonds or some serious restructuring
> of the school systems budgets, our kids will
> continue to suffer by attending schools that were
> built in the 20th century or rat infested
> trailers...and we live in one of the most affluent
> counties in this country? Something's very wrong
> with this picture.


Nice to see a little common sense posted on FFXU every once in a while.

Registered Voter...a Big talking coward..big man on FFXU...little man in life.

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Ridiculous economic theory that would have us all
> living in caves if followed by all.


Umm, okay mister democrats are gods, republicans are evil.

So deficit spending is now a good thing? Please explain the sudden reversal in the liberal thought process.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
The function of conservatives is not to meet every liberal program or scheme with a denunciation or a destructive counterscheme, but rather to weigh its advantages and defects, supporting the first and challenging the second. A declaration of ideological warfare against liberalism is by its nature profoundly unconservative. It meets perceived radicalism with a counterradicalism of its own.

Vince(1) Wrote:

> Ridiculous economic theory that would have us all
> living in caves if followed by all.


The only ones who'd be living in caves are the moochers and lazy asses who want other people to work and give stuff to them.

The Bond issue is absolutely no different than the mortgage mess. It is people making decisions to become obligated to something they can't really afford. The problem is that it is you and I, the taxpayers, that are going to be paying the mortgage. The Board Members only have 2 years left in their terms and that is all they care about. The rest of us, the taxpayers AND OUR CHILDREN, will be paying for this for a very long time. People need to tell them to postpone building new schools until the deficit is removed. They can fix overcrowding issues if they addressed it from a countywide perspective instead of piecemeal.

Taxpayers in other states have been voting NO to Bonds. Here is just one of them.

http://www.statejournal.com/story.cfm?func=viewstory&storyid=26342

Article is called Voters Say "NO" to Harrison County School Bond

No2Taxes Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Article is called Voters Say "NO" to Harrison
> County School Bond


You want Fairfax County to look to Harrison County, West Virginia for advice?

Even with the bond they will cut the full day kindergarten and Language Immersion programs - the schools dont have the money to keep the doors open let alone offer superior education services...

Thurston Moore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> With these bonds, the county and the school board
> have the luxury of never having to restructure the
> budgets.
>
> The problem with these bond referendums is that
> people mistakenly believe they are voting for the
> project, not for how it is funded. The project is
> already planned and approved, or they wouldn't be
> able to hold the referendum on using debt to fund
> it.
>
> Voting for a bond referendum is VOTING TO USE DEBT
> TO FUND a project that, if voted down, would be
> paid for from the general funds in the budget.
> Voting NO does not kill the project, it just
> forces the county to find the money in it's
> budget. Without debt, they'll cut wasteful
> programs and delay unecessary things in order to
> deal with the necessary and prudent projects and
> services.

+20, Thurston

We need to wake up and stop putting VA and the County in Debt. Balance the budget!

who you callin SHEEP!?!?!?! THE SCHOOL BOARD OWES US A CASE OF BEER. and until you get us OUR CASE OF BEER the kids are going without PENCILS, PAPER, PENS, MARKERS, ERASERS, hell SCHOOL LUNCHES and WE are CUTTIN OFF THE AC! YEAH! in yer FACE PTA!

Damn PGen has his own motorcycle gang now.

dono Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Even with the bond they will cut the full day
> kindergarten and Language Immersion programs - the
> schools dont have the money to keep the doors open
> let alone offer superior education services...


With or without the bond. Please, try to comprehend exactly what a bond referendum IS!

There is a state law that requires a balanced budget, meaning no deficit spending.

There is a loophole that allows municipalities to hold bond referendums for specific projects. The projects already exist, and will be funded from the budget, but if the voters say "yes", the municipality can issue bonds to pay for the project, instead of paying for it out of pocket.

The referendum does not indicate whether the project should or should not go forward. It is a backdoor, sleazy way of sneaking in some deficit spending.

Basically, anytime the voters get emotional and vote "yes" for a school or park bond, they are unwittingly allowing the county to expand other services that would otherwise not be fundable, by taking the funding away from the school or park project and, instead, selling bonds to fund those.

Every time people question the whole bond issue, head on, instead of the confused and uninformed voters who blindly vote for "the school bond" or the "park bond" because they couldn't live with themselves if they voted against schools and parks, their reply is "But we need to maintain our AAA bond rating!".

Why does a county that should not be running deficits need to maintain a triple-A bond rating? If you don't carry debt, who gives a fuck what your credit score is?

-----------------------------------------------------------------
The function of conservatives is not to meet every liberal program or scheme with a denunciation or a destructive counterscheme, but rather to weigh its advantages and defects, supporting the first and challenging the second. A declaration of ideological warfare against liberalism is by its nature profoundly unconservative. It meets perceived radicalism with a counterradicalism of its own.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/10/2009 01:42AM by Thurston Moore.

Thurston Moore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> dono Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------

> Every time people question the whole bond issue,
> head on, instead of the confused and uninformed
> voters who blindly vote for "the school bond" or
> the "park bond" because they couldn't live with
> themselves if they voted against schools and
> parks, their reply is "But we need to maintain our
> AAA bond rating!".
>

The reason why we have to fund maintenance on bonds is because too much of our taxes go to Richmond and never come back.

We pay high taxes and Richmond/RoVa spend them

If you want to run entirely from current account, you have a small number of choices

- drive out inefficiencies in service delivery
- cut services
- reduce rising demand
- raise taxes

or the low hanging fruit - actually get to spend the taxes you pay

Otherwise you issue bonds in order to borrow as cheaply as possible

Rather than putting up with schools which are falling apart or lack modern facilities - beat up on your local and state elected officials to get YOUR taxes spent in YOUR county

FCPS uses the same mentality you are talking about, but it is actually preying on the sympathies of people who care about schools to abuse the taxpayers in the County.


The old equation, repeated year after year, is to exert pressure on the Board of Supervisors to give more money to schools by putting unpopular cuts and damaging reductions to children on the table. Every budget cycle, we go through the same formula: the school board warns that if they don’t get the money they requested, teacher salaries will be cut, our competitiveness will be lost, class sizes will be increased and a sport (pick one; it changes every year) will be eliminated. Yet nobody ever expects FCPS to control its OWN budget. For example,

Why do we have 17 assistant superintendents who each earn a six-figure salary?

Why is our assistant principal-to-student ratio so much higher than surrounding counties?

Why don't we find efficiencies in our budget by combining resources between our county government and schools—libraries, human resources departments, legal counsel and financial systems.

• Why haven’t we automated our school transportation system? Transportation is a major cost of the school system, yet we still plan our bus routes with paper, scissors and envelopes.

• Why did we grow from four areas to eight clusters, doubling our administration?

FCPS is USING you! The bond is just another way they are going to USE you.

Yes and this year they are going to tell you that they are closing Clifton Elementary to save money which is just a big political ploy. They could renovate and save the schools (including West Springfield High) if they would quit spending so much on their own damn WASTEFUL Administration! They are all ticked off over Gatehouse II because they got mud in their face because it was so public but they operate like that EVERY DAMN DAY! It's doesn't matter though because everyone is going to vote yes on the bond and they will think they can just keep going on with business as usual.

Fairfax County sells bonds....I buy them! Pretty good income with low risk.

Think of the future, morons, you don't need that fancy fucking car and big TV! Bonds should be part of everyone's investment portfolio!

Vote YES on school bonds! Thank you.

tubby Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fairfax County sells bonds....I buy them! Pretty
> good income with low risk.
>
> Think of the future, morons, you don't need that
> fancy fucking car and big TV! Bonds should be
> part of everyone's investment portfolio!
>
> Vote YES on school bonds! Thank you.


Have you considered that you would get a much higher effective return by buying bonds from someplace where you will not end up paying part of the interest you earn?

If you buy a bond in Fairfax, and you pay taxes here, and I buy a bond with the exact same yield from some place that I will never pay taxes, I am slightly ahead of you.

If I could get my county to balance it's budget, and people like you stopped voting yes on these referendums, I come out way ahead because I make money off the fools in other municipalities while keeping my taxes in check.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
The function of conservatives is not to meet every liberal program or scheme with a denunciation or a destructive counterscheme, but rather to weigh its advantages and defects, supporting the first and challenging the second. A declaration of ideological warfare against liberalism is by its nature profoundly unconservative. It meets perceived radicalism with a counterradicalism of its own.

blow the bridges Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> The reason why we have to fund maintenance on
> bonds is because too much of our taxes go to
> Richmond and never come back.
>
> We pay high taxes and Richmond/RoVa spend them

That's an important issue, but not quite part of the argument for or against bond referendums.

In fact, there might be a much more heated debate against the lopsided tax distribution if our county couldn't rely on hapless emotional voters approving these bond referendums.


>
> If you want to run entirely from current account,
> you have a small number of choices
>
> - drive out inefficiencies in service delivery
> - cut services
> - reduce rising demand
> - raise taxes
>

These are all legitimate solutions. When a county is allowed to spend money it doesn't have, it provides services that it fiscally cannot support, and the expectation for these services is artificially inflated by the borrowing.

If a county is only given one option, to spend only the money it has in its accounts, it is forced to make hard choices, and will provide only the services that are structurally necessary, first, and only then, the services that it can afford afterwards.


> or the low hanging fruit - actually get to spend
> the taxes you pay
>
> Otherwise you issue bonds in order to borrow as
> cheaply as possible
>

The bonds are the way they borrow. They are the state and local equivalent of US Treasury Bonds.

> Rather than putting up with schools which are
> falling apart or lack modern facilities - beat up
> on your local and state elected officials to get
> YOUR taxes spent in YOUR county


Our schools are pretty good compared to most of the country's. Sure, there may be some older schools that don't have the latest and greatest architectural flourishes and fancy technology. But, to even think that our schools are sub-par belies an insular and very selfish view of the world.

Anyone bitching about the board, or the quality of the buildings, or VP-to-Student ratios should take a little trip to South Carolina, or St. Louis, or just throw a dart at a map of the US and go to that school district.

You'll come back knowing that your kids are in one of only a few really good school districts in this nation.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
The function of conservatives is not to meet every liberal program or scheme with a denunciation or a destructive counterscheme, but rather to weigh its advantages and defects, supporting the first and challenging the second. A declaration of ideological warfare against liberalism is by its nature profoundly unconservative. It meets perceived radicalism with a counterradicalism of its own.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2009 12:03AM by Thurston Moore.

Thurston Moore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Anyone bitching about the board, or the quality of
> the buildings, or VP-to-Student ratios should take
> a little trip to South Carolina, or St. Louis, or
> just throw a dart at a map of the US and go to
> that school district.
>
> You'll come back knowing that your kids are in one
> of only a few really good school districts in this
> nation.


Because someone else is bad doesn't make you "good" (let alone "really good"; it only makes you better than them.

Thurston Moore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Vince(1) Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > Ridiculous economic theory that would have us
> all
> > living in caves if followed by all.
>
>
> Umm, okay mister democrats are gods, republicans
> are evil.
>
> So deficit spending is now a good thing? Please
> explain the sudden reversal in the liberal thought
> process.

Deficit spending is neither good nor bad in and of itself. It depends on when the deficit spending is used and on what. On the national level deficit spending to finance wars of convenince is irresponsible...my humble opinion.

At the county level there really isnt any deficit spending. The use of bonds to build..maintain schools is as stupid as you going to bank to obtain financing to buy a house. When you pay your mortgage you are still living within your means..Fairfax County selling bonds...is still living within their means when selling bonds. Now the case could be made that our recent economic crisis shows that at times mortgages can be poor fiancial tools. If you think Fairfax County is engaging in highly leveraged financing..that we are in danger of defaulting on those bonds..then I agree with you. But I do not see any evidence of that...and our bond ratings dont seem to indicate that either.

Registered Voter...a Big talking coward..big man on FFXU...little man in life.

Thurston Moore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> tubby Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Fairfax County sells bonds....I buy them!
> Pretty
> > good income with low risk.
> >
> > Think of the future, morons, you don't need
> that
> > fancy fucking car and big TV! Bonds should be
> > part of everyone's investment portfolio!
> >
> > Vote YES on school bonds! Thank you.
>
>
> Have you considered that you would get a much
> higher effective return by buying bonds from
> someplace where you will not end up paying part of
> the interest you earn?
>
> If you buy a bond in Fairfax, and you pay taxes
> here, and I buy a bond with the exact same yield
> from some place that I will never pay taxes, I am
> slightly ahead of you.
>
> If I could get my county to balance it's budget,
> and people like you stopped voting yes on these
> referendums, I come out way ahead because I make
> money off the fools in other municipalities while
> keeping my taxes in check.


Another ridiculous analysis...based upon your dogmatic belief that the county is spending money they dont need to. That is a seperate issue... spending... borrowing..taxing for money you dont need to spend is never a good idea...but it is seperate issue. Counties borrow money because they need the money. If they dont get it from bonds..they will get it from other sources. If bonds are the cheapest source of revenue then going to other sources will increase the counties debt..not increase it.

By the way..would your analysis also suggest that you would never borrow money from a bank you own stock in? Of course not...when the bank lends you money at 5% its because they beleive they can borrow money at a lower percentage rate. Same thing with bonds....only in reverse...they sell bonds because any other source will cost more.

Registered Voter...a Big talking coward..big man on FFXU...little man in life.

A bond referendum is a plan to borrow. I vote no every time because they should put it in the original budget. A balanced budget. Don't let them assume that they do not have to budget properly and can just add the bond every time. It is ridiculous.

Rebecca Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A bond referendum is a plan to borrow. I vote no
> every time because they should put it in the
> original budget. A balanced budget. Don't let
> them assume that they do not have to budget
> properly and can just add the bond every time. It
> is ridiculous.


Rebecca...please...bonds are budgeted...the interest on the bonds is budgeted...and if retired (and not refinaced) the bonds reapymant is budgeted.

Registered Voter...a Big talking coward..big man on FFXU...little man in life.

So? It's not like 'budgeted' means money comes out of the air. They come out of pockets of FFX taxpayers. Along with the %%.

Price Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So? It's not like 'budgeted' means money comes out
> of the air. They come out of pockets of FFX
> taxpayers. Along with the %%.



Of course. Vince(1) is just a foo..

Price Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So? It's not like 'budgeted' means money comes out
> of the air. They come out of pockets of FFX
> taxpayers. Along with the %%.

Idjit..did you read her comment?

Registered Voter...a Big talking coward..big man on FFXU...little man in life.

Vince(1152) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Price Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > So? It's not like 'budgeted' means money comes
> out
> > of the air. They come out of pockets of FFX
> > taxpayers. Along with the %%.
>
>
>
> Of course. Vince(1) is just a foo..


Idjit.

Registered Voter...a Big talking coward..big man on FFXU...little man in life.

Price Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So? It's not like 'budgeted' means money comes out
> of the air. They come out of pockets of FFX
> taxpayers. Along with the %%.


Don't be bothered with Vince.

You're right. Bonds borrow money to pay for things that either should be paid with current budget dollars, or postponed until the money is there to pay for it.

Bonds end up costing taxpayers the interest on those bonds.

The reason some people like this arrangement is because they don't give a shit about the people 5 or 10 years from now having to pay for the burden they've left them.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
The function of conservatives is not to meet every liberal program or scheme with a denunciation or a destructive counterscheme, but rather to weigh its advantages and defects, supporting the first and challenging the second. A declaration of ideological warfare against liberalism is by its nature profoundly unconservative. It meets perceived radicalism with a counterradicalism of its own.

Thurston Moore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> blow the bridges Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------

> Anyone bitching about the board, or the quality of
> the buildings, or VP-to-Student ratios should take
> a little trip to South Carolina, or St. Louis, or
> just throw a dart at a map of the US and go to
> that school district.
>
> You'll come back knowing that your kids are in one
> of only a few really good school districts in this
> nation.

Argggghhh!

two distinct issues:
1. why the US school system overall is not globally competitive
2. why the individual school system that I pay for and that my kids go to is not competitive with the world's best rather than the nation's worst

I want to compare the performance of my schools with South Korea, Japan and Scandinavia and the world's best - not with our own 3rd world cities and states

yes, fix America's schools (its important), but first fix our schools - and a good way to do that is to actually spend our own taxes (currently subverted by Richmond) rather than having to issue bonds.

Like other contributors, my kids schools are falling apart and are unchanged since the 1970s. Its fine if you're in a SB members pet school or visibly failing because no-one speaks English in your school - but not if you're in a mainstream neighborhood with a mainstream school.

We pay the taxes, we have the needs - but someone else is stealing the money and forcing us into debt.

That has to stop

Lurker. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Damn PGen has his own motorcycle gang now.


Hey pgens, what's the jacket for your MC look like?

Got picture?

I was told one time that the general theory is that the thing built by the bond is expected to be of more total value over time than the bond plus interest over time, so it actually comes out as a gain when you look at the whole lifetime of the bonded object (which is usually a building)

RESton Peace Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I was told one time that the general theory is
> that the thing built by the bond is expected to be
> of more total value over time than the bond plus
> interest over time, so it actually comes out as a
> gain when you look at the whole lifetime of the
> bonded object (which is usually a building)


huh?

RESton Peace Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I was told one time that the general theory is
> that the thing built by the bond is expected to be
> of more total value over time than the bond plus
> interest over time, so it actually comes out as a
> gain when you look at the whole lifetime of the
> bonded object (which is usually a building)

Not when you have bonds that are passed and executed to repair the intial building built with money borrowed from the sale of bonds. It's a vicious cycle. Besides, how often does the county sell a bonded project? It can only be a gain if the asset could ever be sold. While monetarily, the park may appreciate in land value, it is worthless if never sold. In fact, it becomes a maintenance liability.

Probably there could be some gain during times like now when cost of borrowing is low, along with low cost of labour & material, vs. better economic times when both components are more expensive. But either way bonds = transferring the burden to your children.

Price Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Probably there could be some gain during times
> like now when cost of borrowing is low, along with
> low cost of labour & material, vs. better economic
> times when both components are more expensive. But
> either way bonds = transferring the burden to your
> children.


God damn...is your mortgage a transfer of debt to your children? Of course not. Maintenance deferred...infrastructure needed but not built at a higher cost then needed is as much a burden on future generations.

Registered Voter...a Big talking coward..big man on FFXU...little man in life.

Thurston Moore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Price Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > So? It's not like 'budgeted' means money comes
> out
> > of the air. They come out of pockets of FFX
> > taxpayers. Along with the %%.
>
>
> Don't be bothered with Vince.
>
> You're right. Bonds borrow money to pay for
> things that either should be paid with current
> budget dollars, or postponed until the money is
> there to pay for it.
>
> Bonds end up costing taxpayers the interest on
> those bonds.
>
> The reason some people like this arrangement is
> because they don't give a shit about the people 5
> or 10 years from now having to pay for the burden
> they've left them.

Thurston..thank god you have no say in County Finance policy. I assume you never have had a mortgage..or financed a car. If fairfax County lived by the policy you propose we would still be in the stone age.

Registered Voter...a Big talking coward..big man on FFXU...little man in life.

Vince(1) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thurston..thank god you have no say in County
> Finance policy. I assume you never have had a
> mortgage..or financed a car. If fairfax County
> lived by the policy you propose we would still be
> in the stone age.

Yep, and CA is a perfect example that living beyond your means is much better than within

Baaaaaah! My fur is used for clothing! Down with Gatehouse II! Baaaaaaaah!

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

Price Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yep, and CA is a perfect example that living
> beyond your means is much better than within

Borrowing money doesn't automatically mean you're living outside your means. I took out a mortgage to buy a house. Was that wrong? Should I instead have rented someone else's house or bought a tent and squatted somewhere until I had the money saved up? That seems to be what several people here advocate. For me, the advantages of owning a house outweigh the disadvantages of paying interest on the mortgage.

Mr Captcha Wrote:
> Borrowing money doesn't automatically mean you're
> living outside your means. I took out a mortgage
> to buy a house. Was that wrong? Should I instead
> have rented someone else's house or bought a tent
> and squatted somewhere until I had the money saved
> up? That seems to be what several people here
> advocate. For me, the advantages of owning a
> house outweigh the disadvantages of paying
> interest on the mortgage.

You've provided the answer in your own question: you borrowed to buy your house because it's the only way for you to afford ownership of such house, and you accept paying a premium for "what's mine" (in better times you'd also could claim such advantages as equity appreciation).

Borrowing $$ thru bonds is not the only way for FFX county to have a facility to accomodate certain number of students/teachers/support staff/etc. They can squeeze the building costs into existing budget at the expense of other items; they can lease available commercial space; they can include special provisions for developers to build schools as part of zoning approval process. Obviously schools are not offices and you can't move them as easily, but the point is over and over again the County puts whatever crap into the budget, and then puts pet projects for bond referendums since it's someting people are unlikely to oppose - who would vote against roads/schools/parks?

As an example of the "efficient" use of taxpayers money, remember the recent bond referendums for land acquisition for parks that passed? Interestilgnly enough, the expansion of Furnace and Lorton Roads (also paid by borrowed money) includes land acquisionts from 30+ private properties, even though with minor adjustments both roads in their entirety can go thru land already owned by the County. So rather than using what County already has, they want to borrow $$ to buy parcels of private land, while there are acres of undeveloped land perfectly good for parks, road expansions, etc.

Note to Sammy about Tina Hone, she also said that Annandale students should go to Woodson (from inside the Beltway) and Woodson students displaced from this move should go to Falls Church and Annandale. She also called Woodson "a sacred cow" siting it needed diversity. Ms. Hone's county-wide boundary study/plan looks like bussing with a new title: County Wide Boundary Study.

Here it is another way. Sure budget the interest, the building is worth something for awhile, whatever.

The point is the expense should be in an actual balanced budget. The interest paying all those other "yes" voted bonds should be too, and the costs of fixing those buildings that WERE worth something (perhaps) should be too.

Notice they do not do a bond referendum on say, healthcare for illegals. That is built into the budget.

Why not put the new library or park into the budget and then do a bond referendum on the healthcare for illegals? BECAUSE MOST PEOPLE WOULD VOTE NO!! They put the attractive things in bond referendums. The things we could not vote "no" (well, I can) for and feel like we let our poor kids down etc. if we say no. PUT IT ALL IN THE BUDGET...A BALANCED BUDGET. Cut expenses, stop diverting money from Northern Virginia to Southern Virginia. Keep the taxes where they are collected and spend them on the things those people paid for.

Stop approving budgets then extracting more money from us for things most nice people who don't understand what you have done will vote for. It's not that people who vote yes are stupid. I didn't understand it before, I just thought those things should be done so I should say yes. But once I understood the overall concept, I started saying no. Not because I hate little kids and pretty parks but because it shouldn't be an extra, it should be built in as common sense and part of our original plan. Not an add-on.

Take out the "crap" from the budget, put in the stuff we need like those parks and libraries, and then let us vote on the "crap" as a bond referendum. You'll get different results. I guarantee it.

Rebecca,

That's the thing we're not supposed to understand.

We are only supposed to think "well, gosh, I like schools and parks and butterflies, so yes, please do these things."

We aren't supposed to understand that the question isn't about doing them or not, because they are going to be done either way.

We are supposed to be emotionally suckered into allowing the county to run a deficit by taking projects out of the budget and funding them with bonds.

Like you said, if the bond referendums were for section 8 housing, or health care for undocumented workers, nobody would vote yes, so all of that is stuffed deep within the budget, and in order to pay for them, the happy-feel-good schools and parks are put out for "bond referendums".

On second thought, though, I guess I see the utility in selling bonds.

We have a growing and menacing problem in this county with tinted windows on cars, and we need to build an even bigger courthouse and hire more court clerks to collect the fines.

If we have to mortgage our future in order to protect ourselves from the ominous threat of darkened car windows, so be it.

Besides, who can resist voting "yes" for a school or a park? It's just so cuddly and cute and makes us all feel koombaya and all that shit.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
The function of conservatives is not to meet every liberal program or scheme with a denunciation or a destructive counterscheme, but rather to weigh its advantages and defects, supporting the first and challenging the second. A declaration of ideological warfare against liberalism is by its nature profoundly unconservative. It meets perceived radicalism with a counterradicalism of its own.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/16/2009 05:04AM by Thurston Moore.

Thurston Moore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Rebecca,
>
> That's the thing we're not supposed to
> understand.
>
> We are only supposed to think "well, gosh, I like
> schools and parks and butterflies, so yes, please
> do these things."
>
> We aren't supposed to understand that the question
> isn't about doing them or not, because they are
> going to be done either way.
>
> We are supposed to be emotionally suckered into
> allowing the county to run a deficit by taking
> projects out of the budget and funding them with
> bonds.
>
> Like you said, if the bond referendums were for
> section 8 housing, or health care for undocumented
> workers, nobody would vote yes, so all of that is
> stuffed deep within the budget, and in order to
> pay for them, the happy-feel-good schools and
> parks are put out for "bond referendums".
>
> On second thought, though, I guess I see the
> utility in selling bonds.
>
> We have a growing and menacing problem in this
> county with tinted windows on cars, and we need to
> build an even bigger courthouse and hire more
> court clerks to collect the fines.
>
> If we have to mortgage our future in order to
> protect ourselves from the ominous threat of
> darkened car windows, so be it.
>
> Besides, who can resist voting "yes" for a school
> or a park? It's just so cuddly and cute and makes
> us all feel koombaya and all that shit.


Abso-f'ing-lutely. Anyone who disagrees with what Thurston just posted is an idiot.

Tommy Tune Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Abso-f'ing-lutely. Anyone who disagrees with what
> Thurston just posted is an idiot.

You go girl.

Inkahootz, Pat, you are the man!

-----------------------------------------------------------------
The function of conservatives is not to meet every liberal program or scheme with a denunciation or a destructive counterscheme, but rather to weigh its advantages and defects, supporting the first and challenging the second. A declaration of ideological warfare against liberalism is by its nature profoundly unconservative. It meets perceived radicalism with a counterradicalism of its own.

2009 Bond Referendum
On Tuesday, November 3, 2009, the voters of Fairfax County will be asked to vote on a school referendum valued at $232,580,000.

The 2009 bond referendum includes:


New Construction

$ 50,000,000 to construct a new middle school in the south county area.


Hell NO!!


$ 4,150,000 Crestwood Elementary School

Wasn't this school renovated a few years ago?


$ 3,455,000 Cunningham Park Elementary School
$ 5,662,000 Kings Park Elementary

$ 4,784,000 Lynbrook Elementary
$ 6,333,000 Spring Hill Elementary
$ 3,225,000 Springfield Estates Elementary
$ 3,929,000 West Springfield Elementary
$ 4,955,000 Woodley Hills Elementary
$ 4,264,000 Whitman Middle School
Renovations

$ 101,822,000 million to renovate Marshall High School.

Only 1400 students-do West Springfield first with 2600 students!!


$ 2,501,000 million in planning money for the renovation of Sandburg Middle School.

$2.5 million to plan-why don't they reuse the "plans" from other schools?

$ 9,750,000 in modular relocation money.

Get rid of trailers!!


Infrastructure Management
$ 3,250,000 ADA

Should be in $2.2 billion budget!

Upgrades
$ 11,250,000 Roof Replacement

ditto

$ 3,250,000 Athletic Infrastructure

Artificial turf fields? Do we really have money for this?


$ 5,750,000 HVAC Replacement
$ 1,500,000 Security Enhancements
$ 1,250,000 Asphalt Paving

Put in budget.


Maybe HALF of this is needed.

As stated by numerous posters, most taxpayers don't bother to look at what they are voting for or even check to see how much was actually spent on a project.

The 2007 Bond had the following in it:


$38,600,000 for INFLATION ADJUSTMENT FOR PRIOR BOND PROJECTS

That is what they call "cost overruns"-due to the delay in bond approval and the actual completeion of the projects-usually 4-5 years???

Another fun one is:

#50,000,000 for a Bus Service Facility-I guess a place to park the buses???

Are you kidding me??

Some schools will be 50 years old before they are renovated and we are spending $50 million on a place to park buses!!

Everyone needs to pay attention to these bonds.

Whoever you are, great post on the figures and people need to know this stuff. I have always voted for the parks and school bonds because it made me feel like I was a bad citizen if I didn't. I'm more informed now and see how ridiculous all this spending is. I'll do what ever I can to get people to vote NO on the bonds until the school system gets their act in order.

Or, it's good until the next time they ask for ANOTHER bond to RENOVATE it!

Nobody knows how to quit spending!!!!

Had it Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Whoever you are, great post on the figures and
> people need to know this stuff. I have always
> voted for the parks and school bonds because it
> made me feel like I was a bad citizen if I didn't.
> I'm more informed now and see how ridiculous all
> this spending is. I'll do what ever I can to get
> people to vote NO on the bonds until the school
> system gets their act in order.


Just be sure to inform your friends that voting no on a bond referendum isn't about opposing the wasteful spending, it is about opposing using debt to pay for the wasteful spending.

Stopping the wasteful spending is another, equally important battle, but the bond referendum doesn't address that -- these projects will go on with or without the sale of bonds. Voting no just tells the county to pay for it out of tax dollars and other revenue, not by selling debt on the open market.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
The function of conservatives is not to meet every liberal program or scheme with a denunciation or a destructive counterscheme, but rather to weigh its advantages and defects, supporting the first and challenging the second. A declaration of ideological warfare against liberalism is by its nature profoundly unconservative. It meets perceived radicalism with a counterradicalism of its own.

Send a strong message to the school board. On November 3, do not vote for the school bond. As long as we taxpayers keep shoveling our scarce dollars into their bottomless pit, they will keep spending.

Lets start a movement.....Just No to the School Board.

Question for everyone . . . I am attempting to inform parents to vote no on the bond but I cannot find any information as to how much interest these bonds would require from the debt service fund.

I actually cannot find how much interest is paid in the 2010 budget period for the county or FCPS . . . Anyone have that info or know where I can get it?

I did find out that $43 million of Fairfax funding transferred to FCPS goes to debt services while a whopping $167 million for all of the county.

Thanks,

If I read the 2010 budget correctly:

County Debt Service $110,931,895
School Debt Service $163,767,929

I.e. unless there're any bonds with 2010 maturity, FFX county pays almost $275M in interest alone.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/20/2009 06:26PM by Price.

Don't you fags realize that nothing you do will have any bearing on any outcome of anything?

Sure you can rally around your little causes but in the end you still have no control. You are all still sheep. Hopeful and wistful sheep, but sheep nontheless.

Shepherd Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Don't you fags realize that nothing you do will
> have any bearing on any outcome of anything?
>
> Sure you can rally around your little causes but
> in the end you still have no control. You are all
> still sheep. Hopeful and wistful sheep, but sheep
> nontheless.

+1

--------------------------------------------------------------
13 4826 0948 82695 25847. Yes.

The folks up in arms about the current crop of school bonds would've been up in arms about them 3-4 years ago in more certain economic times.