Look, I understand. If I had paid $1.2 million for a house that is now worth $700K in order to send my kid to an all white school but instead little Johnny is going to have to go to a school that has 20% brown people in it, I would be angry, too.

But I didn't so I'm not.

interesting question Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Formerhick and Greyberg....I agree that Loft has a
> fatalistic approach. But at some level he is
> speaking to some uncomfortable truths. Hard to
> argue with his sanctimonious posturing comment -
> the statistics to a large extent back up his
> points.
>
> What is the right response when race is
> overwhelmingly a proxy for poor academic
> achievement and conduct, not just in Fairfax but
> throughout the nation? It is not like the County
> isn't spending a lot of money to improve
> achievement and conduct, either.
>
> Parents ought to be tolerant but at what point do
> their concerns become rational from a statistical
> perspective? This isn't just an abstract question
> because when schools reach a tipping point they
> become unattractive and caring parents do opt out
> - either through the political process, private
> school, or whatever other means.
>
> Interested to hear your perspectives.

The correct response is to complain about the behavior, not associating the race with the behavior, because that just opens an entire Pandora's box -- it causes some folks to just put the speak on 'ignore.'

For example, in the Kings Dominion thread, someone could have said, 'You know, I don't like going there because there's been too many violent incidents.' There was no freaking need to talk about race unless you just wanted to advertise your discomfort with/dislike of black people.

Complain about 'trash,' and not 'gangsters' and 'illegals,' and you'll get no complaint from me. Yet at the same time, we've already shown that fear/suspicion of 'the other' doesn't work, nor should it.

Other things:
(1) America spent 250+ years enslaving black people, 100 or so years keeping them in second-class citizen status, and has only tried the 'equal under the law' thing for the past 40 or so years. I'm not sure why many whites expect the transition to be seamless/painfree.
(2) Is separate but equal even achievable? What if the Supreme Court in Brown v. Board had ordered states to make things 'equal' by say 1965, or if the NAACP had waged campaigns to shame Southern states into making 'Negro' schools truly equal?
(3) I wonder how crime/drugs/other bad stuff shakes out for all races if you normalize for poverty (e.g. are low-income whites less prone to crime and other ills than blacks on the same income scale?) Is there an income level above which these racial differences largely disappear?
(4) I've posited here before that minor amounts of trashiness from one's own race is largely tolerated. For example, Gretchen Wilson is tolerated by more whites than say Snoop Dogg, even though both of them sing about getting as much intoxicants into your system as possible. Ditto for teenagers getting into minor trouble -- would the reactions to the Westfields heroin ring story been different if it had been Latino kids at JEB Stuart dealing drugs? You betcha.
(5) It does seem Asian/Black/Hispanic culture has some 'support the extended family even they are deadbeats' elements that are largely absent from Anglo culture.'
(6) Even if it turns out the average Black person is X points lower in IQ than the average White person, so freaking what? Why should a White cretin get a free pass (relatively speaking), and a Black genius/normal person get extra suspicion?

"For example, in the Kings Dominion thread, someone could have said, 'You know, I don't like going there because there's been too many violent incidents.' There was no freaking need to talk about race unless you just wanted to advertise your discomfort with/dislike of black people.

Complain about 'trash,' and not 'gangsters' and 'illegals,' and you'll get no complaint from me. Yet at the same time, we've already shown that fear/suspicion of 'the other' doesn't work, nor should it.

Other things:
(1) America spent 250+ years enslaving black people, 100 or so years keeping them in second-class citizen status, and has only tried the 'equal under the law' thing for the past 40 or so years. I'm not sure why many whites expect the transition to be seamless/painfree.
(2) Is separate but equal even achievable? What if the Supreme Court in Brown v. Board had ordered states to make things 'equal' by say 1965, or if the NAACP had waged campaigns to shame Southern states into making 'Negro' schools truly equal?
(3) I wonder how crime/drugs/other bad stuff shakes out for all races if you normalize for poverty (e.g. are low-income whites less prone to crime and other ills than blacks on the same income scale?) Is there an income level above which these racial differences largely disappear?
(4) I've posited here before that minor amounts of trashiness from one's own race is largely tolerated. For example, Gretchen Wilson is tolerated by more whites than say Snoop Dogg, even though both of them sing about getting as much intoxicants into your system as possible. Ditto for teenagers getting into minor trouble -- would the reactions to the Westfields heroin ring story been different if it had been Latino kids at JEB Stuart dealing drugs? You betcha.
(5) It does seem Asian/Black/Hispanic culture has some 'support the extended family even they are deadbeats' elements that are largely absent from Anglo culture.'
(6) Even if it turns out the average Black person is X points lower in IQ than the average White person, so freaking what? Why should a White cretin get a free pass (relatively speaking), and a Black genius/normal person get extra suspicion?"



What rot;pure pc limousine-liberal rot. Negro agricultural laborers in the 19th century (antebellum) South had a better quality of life than negros anywhere in the world, African Tribal Kings possibly excepted.

"With equal pleasure I have as often taken notice that Providence has been pleased to give this one connected country to one united people -- a people descended from the same ancestors, speaking the same language, professing the same religion, attached to the same principles of government, very similar in their manners and customs," -John Jay, Federalist #2


God bless John Jay. Blacks are disproportionately responsible for crime, violent crime in particular. The most criminal and violent areas of the country and where the black population is highest. And of course, the least violent and criminal areas of the country (think Montana, Idaho, Wyoming) are where the black population is lowest.

Why does this thread about closing Clifton Elementary keep coming back to the right to own slaves? Is there a big desire by Clifton residents to own slaves that I haven't heard about?

WashingTone-Locian Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why does this thread about closing Clifton
> Elementary keep coming back to the right to own
> slaves? Is there a big desire by Clifton residents
> to own slaves that I haven't heard about?

Well, when the admin's thread on banning policies and personal attacks turns into talk of fisting high schoolers, it is no shock that this thread turns into owning slaves.

Why does this thread about closing Clifton Elementary keep coming back to the wonderful and marvelous advantages that blacks bring to the community? Is there a big desire by Clifton residents to change their school from 79% white to 79% black that I haven't heard about? Will that make the Clifton children all smarter?

Washington Tone-Logian Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why does this thread about closing Clifton
> Elementary keep coming back to the wonderful and
> marvelous advantages that blacks bring to the
> community? Is there a big desire by Clifton
> residents to change their school from 79% white to
> 79% black that I haven't heard about? Will that
> make the Clifton children all smarter?


And that's the problem. They would go from a school with <1% black to a school with 11% black. For this region, that's still a pretty damn small percentage to get this worked up over.

Another school thread. I expect this to break 1k in post volume.

I might just go over to Clifton Elementary and tear it down by hand if it will force an end to this discussion.

__________________________________
That's not a ladybug, that's a cannapiller.

76 formerhicks Wrote:
> What rot;pure pc limousine-liberal rot. Negro
> agricultural laborers in the 19th century
> (antebellum) South had a better quality of life
> than negros anywhere in the world, African Tribal
> Kings possibly excepted.

I'm afraid I just can't take your word for this. Some proof may be needed.

How free were these agricultural laborers to put in their two weeks' notice?

I really do understand the concern, though. You would rather have your kids doing cocaine with other white kids instead of crack with the "brothers" and the "Joses." I get it.

As a responsible parent, I'd rather the kids do cocaine with me.

__________________________________
That's not a ladybug, that's a cannapiller.

What I find rather odd is the seasonal timing of this whole matter. Clifton ES was built in the 1950s and has been managing just fine and now all of a sudden as soon as everyone leaves for summer vacation, we have toi decide whether to close this school or not.

It reminds me of the politicians who release bad news on Friday evening in order to minimize coverage.

It is also somewhat comical that the School Board talks about "involving the affected communities" in the process, yet Clifton, only found about these plans due to an internal leak by an FCPS mole. Only then, did FCPS send the damage control team out for the community meeting.

And lastly, if all these communities are going to play a significant role in what happens to this school, how come FCPS is already recommending that the school be closed and a new school be built at Liberty MS?

I just think it is odd to make a recommendation BEFORE the community input.

I think I really do understand the concern, though. You would rather have your kids pimpn', hoin', gangbangin' and doing crack with the bruthas, to show everyone just how progressive and enlightened you are, instead of earning admission into U Va or Tech with the white kids. I get it.

I'm afraid I just can't take your word for this notion that the Southern blacks had an inferior quality of life than blacks in Africa or in the Northern US. Some proof may be needed.

Can you tell me what the life expectancy of an African slave in Gambia was in, say 1855? Can you tell me the life expectancy of a "free" northern black in 1855?

I completed my k-6 at Clifton ES around 10 years ago and can personally attest to the personal attention and quaint feeling the school has, etc. While it may be possible that kids score well in SOLs or whatever other bullshit exams they take these days - I can tell you that a disproportionate amount of kids that graduated from Clifton elementary from 8-12 years ago ended up getting busted on drug dist.(not weed, blow, ecs. and such), dwi/dui charges before graduated from college and even high school in many cases. I've never been able to figure this out? I guess kids with less desire to succeed (since they already have so many luxuries people dream of) just try to take the easy way out to make big bucks.

Even with that being said, I don't think the school should be closed - but I'll admit that I'm horribly biased.

And to WashingtoneLocian - not everyone wants it closed because of the housing market depressing. Some of us had homes before the housing market exploded in the late-ninety's. So that's really more of a $700,000 back then to $1.3~1.4 M. now conservatively, even in a depressed market, type of deal. Sorry to bust your bubble.

- HD

yet Clifton, only found about these plans due to an internal leak by an FCPS mole. Only then, did FCPS send the damage control team out for the community meeting.

I was under the impression that Liz Bradsher mentioned it to Pat Herrity who then went to the Mayor with the information...so not a mole per se.

H DeeZy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> And to WashingtoneLocian - not everyone wants it
> closed because of the housing market depressing.
> Some of us had homes before the housing market
> exploded in the late-ninety's. So that's really
> more of a $700,000 back then to $1.3~1.4 M. now
> conservatively, even in a depressed market, type
> of deal. Sorry to bust your bubble.
>
> - HD


Here's a house in Balmoral Greens that assessed at more than $1 million in 2008...

http://icare.fairfaxcounty.gov/Forms/Datalets.aspx?mode=valuesall&taxyear=2010&ownseq=1&roll=REAL&jur=&sIndex=1&idx=1&LMparent=138

...Which is now on the market in the 700s...

Sorry to burst YOUR bubble...

http://www.justnewlistings.com/idx/mris/FX6982762/details.html

WashingTone-Locian Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> H DeeZy Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >
> > And to WashingtoneLocian - not everyone wants
> it
> > closed because of the housing market
> depressing.
> > Some of us had homes before the housing market
> > exploded in the late-ninety's. So that's really
> > more of a $700,000 back then to $1.3~1.4 M. now
> > conservatively, even in a depressed market,
> type
> > of deal. Sorry to bust your bubble.
> >
> > - HD
>
>
> Here's a house in Balmoral Greens that assessed at
> more than $1 million in 2008...
>
> http://icare.fairfaxcounty.gov/Forms/Datalets.aspx
> ?mode=valuesall&taxyear=2010&ownseq=1&roll=REAL&ju
> r=&sIndex=1&idx=1&LMparent=138
>
> ...Which is now on the market in the 700s...
>
> Sorry to burst YOUR bubble...
>
> http://www.justnewlistings.com/idx/mris/FX6982762/
> details.html

I said people who bought property before the late-ninety's, doucheasauras. Please actually read the post you are replying to before you waste precious time copying and pasting irrelevant links.

Regards.

HD

H DeeZy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> I said people who bought property before the
> late-ninety's, doucheasauras. Please actually read
> the post you are replying to before you waste
> precious time copying and pasting irrelevant
> links.
>
> Regards.
>
> HD


Hey, twat! Point out where I said anything in my original statement about the fucking 1990s! The people doing the most bitching are the ones who paid premium prices during the housing bubble to get away from the brown and black people of the world. Guess what? You're fucked!

sneaky School Board Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > I just think it is odd to make a recommendation
> BEFORE the community input.


This is exactly how the School Board does business. This is not new. This is how they do everything. No matter what the community desires, after all their meetings, afther all their reiterations, the end result will be exactly what is proposed right now.

The people doing the most bitching are the ones who paid premium prices during the housing bubble to get away from the brown and black people of the world. Guess what? You are 79% white! You did it! God bless.

76 formerhicks Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Can you tell me what the life expectancy of an
> African slave in Gambia was in, say 1855? Can you
> tell me the life expectancy of a "free" northern
> black in 1855?

No, and can you?

I'm just a little curious why you seem to think enslavement is a desirable condition.

WTF? why does this thread always come back to race and slavery? can we get back on topic please

No, and can you?

I'm just a little curious why you seem to think enslavement is a desirable condition."

And I, in turn, am just a little curious as to why you seem to think that "slavery" in the Southern U.S. was worse than slavery in Africa, Asia, and South America. Or why, for that matter, you seem think that "free" blacks in the north had a better quality of life than Southern agricultural laborers.

Though I live in the Clifton school zone, I don't live in the Town of Clifton or even in the Fairfax Station or Clifton zip codes. For those of you continuing your spasms about the "elitests" and "rich folk" take note that not everyone in that area is rich and I'm relatively certain most people I know living in that area could care less if more kids from varying ethnic and social backgrounds went to the school.

For those posting how afraid all of us in the Clifton school zone are of those of color or other nationality, don't label an entire community just because of a handful that may have that viewpoint. Just as you likely wouldn't want to be labeled based on the questionable actions of a few people from where you live or of your ethnic background. Right? Or does that only apply when it suits you?

NotaCliftonite Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Though I live in the Clifton school zone, I don't
> live in the Town of Clifton or even in the Fairfax
> Station or Clifton zip codes. For those of you
> continuing your spasms about the "elitests" and
> "rich folk" take note that not everyone in that
> area is rich and I'm relatively certain most
> people I know living in that area could care less
> if more kids from varying ethnic and social
> backgrounds went to the school.
>
> For those posting how afraid all of us in the
> Clifton school zone are of those of color or other
> nationality, don't label an entire community just
> because of a handful that may have that viewpoint.
> Just as you likely wouldn't want to be labeled
> based on the questionable actions of a few people
> from where you live or of your ethnic background.
> Right? Or does that only apply when it suits you?

I'm not labeling everyone in Clifton. Just the ones on here freaking out that there kids would be moving from Clifton Elementary to Union Mill. Sorry, but a lot of families would LOVE to send their kids to Union Mill. The only explanation of why these people are upset is the fact that Union Mill has a student population that is more representational of the community at large.

What may be hard for outsiders to see is how much the town and the school are a part of each other. The school is perched on the edge of the town, removing it diminishes the entire town as well as diminishes the educational opportunities of all the students that go there. The education and environment that the children receive at Clifton Elementary school is the best parents think they can get for their children. It is special because of its small town setting and conversely because of its locality within a county of a million residents. It has the best of both worlds and it is rare.

I see. Everyone else in the county should support an expensive school renovation for Clifton's very small student population. Many other schools have to make do (including West Springfield H.S. and TJ), but Clifton should get special treatment. Otherwise the town is "diminished."

Some people/areas feel they are more important than others around here, even though the county has run out of money for basic services. The entitlement attitude.

I'm assuming the Town of Clifton charges RE taxes ... why not let it create its own school system a la West Point/Colonial Beach, except its only school is Clifton Elementary (K-6) -- Lexington does something like this, running schools for grades K-8 and sending 9-12 students to Rockbridge County.

The Town of Clifton doesn't tax real estate. To the best of my knowledge, the only tax revenue the town has is from BPOL (businesses), and it isn't that much. As far housing values, Clifton has actually held up pretty well. Undoubtably, there are some people who are upside down in their houses, but I think the vast majority have a fair amount of equity. Just take a look at the map of 20124 on realtytrac.com and you'll see foreclosures are a pretty rare thing.


formerhick76 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm assuming the Town of Clifton charges RE taxes
> ... why not let it create its own school system a
> la West Point/Colonial Beach, except its only
> school is Clifton Elementary (K-6) -- Lexington
> does something like this, running schools for
> grades K-8 and sending 9-12 students to Rockbridge
> County.

oh right Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I see. Everyone else in the county should support
> an expensive school renovation for Clifton's very
> small student population. Many other schools
> have to make do (including West Springfield H.S.
> and TJ), but Clifton should get special treatment.
> Otherwise the town is "diminished."
>
> Some people/areas feel they are more important
> than others around here, even though the county
> has run out of money for basic services. The
> entitlement attitude.


the people in Clifton pay taxes just like the rest of the county residents. Why shouldn't the school be renovated? All tax payers are paying for free breakfast/lunch programs, yet Clifton is using 2% of that, compared to the county avg. of 33%. If the county finances are in such dire straits, was it REALLY necessary to put an electronic sensor over each and every parking space at Gatehouse to tell you if a car is parked there?
Renovating Clifton Elem. isn't about an entitlement attitude. It's not about asking for "special treatment". As I understand it, Clifton parents just don't want the school to close. I don't know of any parent who would want their kids school to close if the child is doing well there. The Clifton parents that I've spoken to don't even care if Clifton Elem. isn't renovated for a while. The school is functioning just fine, as is. As far as the cost of the bottled water, I think most of the parents would be just fine sending in their own bottled water every day if it meant keeping the school open.
Are Clifton residents more "privileged", maybe, but they manage to make enough $ to live there. Good for them. Why does that mean they don't have the right to a neighborhood school?

CliftonResident Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> actually held up pretty well. Undoubtably, there
> are some people who are upside down in their
> houses, but I think the vast majority have a fair


I like that you used upside down, instead of the neospeak "underwater" crap that you hear on all the cable news channels.

Why do we have to keep inventing new ways to describe the same old thing? Oh yeah, it's part of political speech -- it changes the way people think about an issue.

Being underwater implies that you are drowning and need help. Being upside down just means you owe more than the value of your home, while you still have your home as long as you keep making payments.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/18/2009 11:32PM by Thurston Moore.

To "Why Not?"--No one disputes the value of a small, neighborhood school. But to say Clifton parents "have the *right* to a neighborhood school" over other students' rights to basic services is not responsible. It is selfish.

There's nothing wrong with Clifton parents making enough money to buy out there. But they cannot make their small school a priority when many other bigger issues affecting more people are being neglected.

It is FCPS/Fairfax County's fault for not properly planning and saving when there was more money.

OK... Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To "Why Not?"--No one disputes the value of a
> small, neighborhood school. But to say Clifton
> parents "have the *right* to a neighborhood
> school" over other students' rights to basic
> services is not responsible. It is selfish.
>
> There's nothing wrong with Clifton parents making
> enough money to buy out there. But they cannot
> make their small school a priority when many other
> bigger issues affecting more people are being
> neglected.
>
> It is FCPS/Fairfax County's fault for not properly
> planning and saving when there was more money.

Nobody is disputing that there are other schools that need work. I know a lot of parents that have kids in Clifton, and they don't want or expect Clifton ES to be a priority over other schools. They just don't want the school to close. None are asking the county to put Clifton before other schools which need renovation, they are simply asking the county to keep their school open.

I don't live in Clifton. I wish I did. But just because I don't make enough to live there, I don't begrudge them their success, and yes, I do think they have the "right" to keep their ONLY neighborhood school. Every parent, when looking for a house to buy, looks at the schools their children will attend. A huge part of the decision is based on what schools their kids will go to. The parents in Clifton aren't any different. Don't blame them for wanting to preserve what they have worked hard for to buy into an area that still treasure's a small town atmosphere. Clifton is "one of a kind" in Fairfax County. For historical sake alone, the school should remain.

why not? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> OK... Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > To "Why Not?"--No one disputes the value of a
> > small, neighborhood school. But to say Clifton
> > parents "have the *right* to a neighborhood
> > school" over other students' rights to basic
> > services is not responsible. It is selfish.
> >
> > There's nothing wrong with Clifton parents
> making
> > enough money to buy out there. But they
> cannot
> > make their small school a priority when many
> other
> > bigger issues affecting more people are being
> > neglected.
> >
> > It is FCPS/Fairfax County's fault for not
> properly
> > planning and saving when there was more money.
>
> Nobody is disputing that there are other schools
> that need work. I know a lot of parents that have
> kids in Clifton, and they don't want or expect
> Clifton ES to be a priority over other schools.
> They just don't want the school to close. None
> are asking the county to put Clifton before other
> schools which need renovation, they are simply
> asking the county to keep their school open.
>


The County claims that this is fiscally impossible. besides, they won't close it, just relocate it. Then the school can become an admin center

KeepOnTruckin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> why not? Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > OK... Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > To "Why Not?"--No one disputes the value of a
> > > small, neighborhood school. But to say
> Clifton
> > > parents "have the *right* to a neighborhood
> > > school" over other students' rights to basic
> > > services is not responsible. It is selfish.
>
> > >
> > > There's nothing wrong with Clifton parents
> > making
> > > enough money to buy out there. But they
> > cannot
> > > make their small school a priority when many
> > other
> > > bigger issues affecting more people are being
> > > neglected.
> > >
> > > It is FCPS/Fairfax County's fault for not
> > properly
> > > planning and saving when there was more
> money.
> >
> > Nobody is disputing that there are other
> schools
> > that need work. I know a lot of parents that
> have
> > kids in Clifton, and they don't want or expect
> > Clifton ES to be a priority over other schools.
>
> > They just don't want the school to close. None
> > are asking the county to put Clifton before
> other
> > schools which need renovation, they are simply
> > asking the county to keep their school open.
> >
>
>
> The County claims that this is fiscally
> impossible. besides, they won't close it, just
> relocate it. Then the school can become an admin
> center


one less school for u to clean, huh, kot?

CliftonResident Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Town of Clifton doesn't tax real estate. To
> the best of my knowledge, the only tax revenue the
> town has is from BPOL (businesses), and it isn't
> that much. As far housing values, Clifton has
> actually held up pretty well. Undoubtably, there
> are some people who are upside down in their
> houses, but I think the vast majority have a fair
> amount of equity. Just take a look at the map of
> 20124 on realtytrac.com and you'll see
> foreclosures are a pretty rare thing.

Basically the way this would work is the Clifton Public Schools would operate one school, Clifton Elementary. It could contract with FCPS for various services that can't be provided by a tiny school system (e.g. sign language interpreters, etc.) The Lexington City Public Schools are a model to possibly follow, seeing as they educate only K-8 these days (I think there was a Lexington HS once but no longer.)

On the other hand, with the Dillon Rule and the such, setting this up would be nearly impossible. Is the only option connecting CES to the FCWA lines -- wouldn't it be cheaper to get a giant water tank and use that to power the sprinkler?

formerhick76 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> On the other hand, with the Dillon Rule and the
> such, setting this up would be nearly impossible.
> Is the only option connecting CES to the FCWA
> lines -- wouldn't it be cheaper to get a giant
> water tank and use that to power the sprinkler?


Where to put the water tank? It would be either in the courtyard or somwhere in the athletic fields.

Courtyard probably woudlnt be that expensive, but the kids would not like to look out in the courtyard and see a water tank.

Why not build a water tower by the athletic fields?

KeepOnTruckin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> formerhick76 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > On the other hand, with the Dillon Rule and the
> > such, setting this up would be nearly
> impossible.
> > Is the only option connecting CES to the FCWA
> > lines -- wouldn't it be cheaper to get a giant
> > water tank and use that to power the sprinkler?
>
>
> Where to put the water tank? It would be either in
> the courtyard or somwhere in the athletic fields.
>
> Courtyard probably woudlnt be that expensive, but
> the kids would not like to look out in the
> courtyard and see a water tank.
>
> Why not build a water tower by the athletic
> fields?

True. In my first post, I put a cost estimate given for a water tower, which was something like $750,000 or so. I'm not sure if the cost included getting the water, or how much it'd cost to get water into the tower. But I can't see it costing over $2 million.

The school just received the Governor's award for being one of the top 20 schools. It is obviously working and working well. There is not an immediate need for renovation. Leave the working school alone. Apply needed resources to other schools with a need more desperate than Clifton.

You people are a bunch of fools. You DESERVE to pay more taxes. The renovation of Clifton issue is just a smoke screen to redirect focus away from what is going on and its called spending more of your taxes. In an article in the Post called Stacks of Education Goals but Not of Cash, Superintendent Jack Dale projected a $176 million shortfall for next fiscal year and said they are considering eliminating summer school or full-day kindergarten and increasing class sizes. Yet they are trying to build a $50 million Middle School in South County and a $26.5 million Elementary school near Liberty middle. The Clifton thing is just to get everybody to swallow the idea of spending $26.5 million on a new school. Looks like they have got you hook, line and sinker.

I agree. All I see on this thread is that the Board/Government is winning again in spending our tax dollars. Clifton is a perfect target for all kinds of things so people will spin their wheels on something else instead of seeing how they are trying to increase taxes. The County is already working with Clifton to get on public water and it has already been renovated once whereas some of the other schools in the County haven’t been renovated at all. Why not spend attention on the other schools that have never been renovated and need the help more? Because this way they don’t have to answer questions like:

Why do we have 17 assistant superintendents who each earn a six-figure salary?
Why is our assistant principal-to-student ratio so much higher than surrounding counties?
Why did we grow from four areas to eight clusters, doubling our administration?
Where are you going to get the money to hire the teachers to staff the two new schools when you are threatening to lay the current ones off and they are on pay freezes?

They don't have any answers. That is why they have to make new questions and in this case it is whether or not to renovate Clifton.

FCPS does whatever they damn well please. They'll freeze teacher's salaries for a couple of years but Dr. Dale accepts a big raise!!! Don't they realize our economy is years from recovering? Tax payers should demand they cease any more renovations or building of new schools until things recover and teachers get the raises they deserve. It pisses me off.

FCPS sure is good at screwing their low level employees though.

Newly hired bus drivers receive no benefits, no health insurance, no nuthin.

They cut my pay almost 20 percent for this school year.

Even the little stuff is gone.

At the annual driver meeting they used to buy us a donut and a cup of coffee. No more. How much do a few hundred fucking donuts cost?

If you didn't have an accident all year they used to give out Safe Driving jackets. No more.

So rejoice taxpayers. FCPS is indeed saving some money!

That's absurd that they have cut bus drivers pay! Everyone has got to start sounding off to the media to tell them no more spending on renovations or on new buildings or they are just going to keep robbing hardworking taxpayers of their pay. Clifton isn't going to fall down and it is a lot better off than some of the other schools in the County! I heard the parents in Clifton don't even want the renovations so let them buy their little darlings bottled water until the County finishes running public water to the school.

Of course, most of the Board Members terms are ending just about the time the new schools would be built and if they can't build those schools than they won't get the publicity they want for their next runs for office. Coincidental timing, I think not.

FCPS is whining again about the budget deficit and they just sent out a mass email today. Now is the time for taxpayers to get involved and tell them no new building construction or renovations for 2 years. This is what it said:

"Citizens who are unable to attend the community dialogues can pass along their comments and suggestions by calling 703-324-9400 or completing a budget feedback form at www.fairfaxcounty.gov/budget."

Clifton went down hill right after Trummers came.

wow, I thought this thread died out a while ago.
The bottom line is that the county needs to stop hemorrhaging OUR money, period. Until the economy recovers, Ffx Co. has NO business spending $76 million on two new schools.
The FCPS Board is rationalizing building 2 new schools because of the projected overcrowding they are expecting in 2013. That's 4 years from now!!!
The FCPS Board projections for this year, were off by 8,000 students! There are 8,000 less students enrolled this year than what they projected.
The ONLY way to put an end to the spending is for the TAXPAYERS to speak up. Contact the school Board and county officials and tell them enough is enough! Take the 76 million you want to spend on building two NEW schools, and fix the schools we already have that are in dire need of renovations. If Clifton Elem. is one of them, fine. If it doesn't need immediate renovations, let them wait a few years. The County officials and School Board in particular need to be taken down a notch and reminded that they WORK FOR US! TAXPAYERS should decide how and when OUR money is spent.

Former hick, what did you do to throw off your "hickness" so that you are no longer a hick? Was it merely moving to the greater DC area or did you undergo some kind of therapy or something? Just curious.

Didn't realize until recently what kind of impact it is going to have on all of the other schools in the area if they close Clifton Elementary. This is a much bigger deal than I first realized. Why aren't people in Clifton getting this into the Press more? Look at this website:

www.communityschoolsfairfax.org

The Clifton people can kiss their school goodbye and should stop wasting their time and energy worrying about it. This whole thing is about creating countywide diversity and averaging out test scores and there is no way to stop FCPS from doing what they want, just ask the people from CAPS and SLEEP. There is a 3 phase plan for getting what they want:

Phase 1 - Move part of the affluent, high scoring kids from Oakton HS to South Lakes (check). This phase is incomplete as more resdistricting is planned to move Oakton kids to Fairfax HS.

Phase 2 - Build a new elementary school in Centreville, close Clifton ES, and redistrict the whole area under the false premise of overcrowding in the area so that the failing Colin Powell ES can be divided into higher scoring schools.

Phase 3 - Blow up the entire Great Falls/McLean area by redistricting Langley and McLean HS's into Herndon HS, Marshall HS, and Falls Church HS. Close a TBD ES.

Phase 4 - The closing of WT Woodson with students going to the neighboring schools, overflow from kids sent Lake Braddock will change those boundaries with current LB students sent to Annandale and Robinson.

There's more but it's useless to explain so sit back, chill, and accept that it is going to happen and you can't do a thing about it.

Did countywide diversity and averaging out test scores have something to do with the SLEEP thing not going through or are those just some of the people that know about the diversity and averaging out of test scores?

This entire thing is political B.S. The county is facing a $650 million deficit! They should not be building ANYTHING right now. If there are school that pose health risks or safety issues, those should get priority. Leave the rest of the schools alone until the economy can support renovations/additions. All 23 schools that will be impacted if Clifton closes are currently UNDER capacity! Also, when the county calculates capacity, they look at PROGRAM CAPACITY, not DESIGN CAPACITY. Each of these schools, by design, could hold more students if the spaces are used efficiently, and more teachers are hired. Instead, the county wants to shut down a perfectly good school, which is one of the top performing schools in the county, just so they can justify building a new school on the land they already own next to Liberty Middle School. The Liberty Middle school site has 80 acres available to build on. Why doesn't the county sell that land to help offset a portion of the deficit?

clifton parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Liberty Middle
> school site has 80 acres available to build on.
> Why doesn't the county sell that land to help
> offset a portion of the deficit?


The property owners surrounding Liberty MS will not allow this. They bitched about building the middle school in "their" backyard and they bitch whenver the gym classes are outside making noise. They will raise all hell if anything else goes into "their" backyard

It doesn't matter how much the property owners at Liberty MS raise hell. The Board has to come up with some type of school improvement plan for Bull Run and Centre Ridge. Those schools are failing. London Towne, Deer Park and Cub Run also failed AYPs. No matter what the cost or how much the property owners around Liberty MS scream, they are going to put in a new school there and take kids from Union Mill and Clifton so they can average out the scores (no matter what the cost is to taxpayers!) The Board Members only have two years left in their terms and all they care about is how things look for them right now. If they really cared about overcrowding and LONG term growth, they wouldn't be considering closing Clifton. How do you talk about overcrowding and closing down a school at the same time. Makes no sense unless it is really about averaging out the scores.

Ugh. FCPS Board should be helping the kids that need help instead of shuffling them all over the County by building all these new schools and redistricting every time scores go down. They just refuse to accept that all of the redistricting just isn't working! Yet they do it over and over again like a broken record. They want their teachers to be top-notch and innovative but they can't fix anything themselves. If the redistricting were working, they wouldn't need to cheat on test scores like this..

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/columns/Fairfax-public-schools-officials-cheat-on-test-scores-8274810-60043947.html

watch this video about saving clifton elementary school in Clifton, VA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kWxbJ2tX5Q

and visit www.savecliftonelementary.org

My three grandkids have all gone to Clifton Elementary, and I myself live in a small town with a small school.

This is about a small NEIGHBORHOOD school. There are very few of those left. I can see why some of you don't understand what value there is to a neighborhood school, but that is unfortunate.

Clifton doesn't have bells and whistles like some of the larger newer schools, However, all three of my grandkids have had the same teachers, The principal recognizes all the kids and learns their names.

It matters. The kids have a pride in the school and it transfers over to pride in themselves. larger the school the more difficult for that kind of identification to stick. Ask educators where they would rather teach, a small school or a large impersonal one. Schools are not factories, they are communities of learning.

Rather than trash Clifton, we should be asking why all our kids can't have a neighborhood community school.

The coffee shop owner is hot!!
Attachments:

deep throat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Clifton people can kiss their school goodbye
> and should stop wasting their time and energy
> worrying about it. This whole thing is about
> creating countywide diversity and averaging out
> test scores and there is no way to stop FCPS from
> doing what they want, just ask the people from
> CAPS and SLEEP. There is a 3 phase plan for
> getting what they want:
>
> Phase 1 - Move part of the affluent, high scoring
> kids from Oakton HS to South Lakes (check). This
> phase is incomplete as more resdistricting is
> planned to move Oakton kids to Fairfax HS.
>
> Phase 2 - Build a new elementary school in
> Centreville, close Clifton ES, and redistrict the
> whole area under the false premise of overcrowding
> in the area so that the failing Colin Powell ES
> can be divided into higher scoring schools.
>
> Phase 3 - Blow up the entire Great Falls/McLean
> area by redistricting Langley and McLean HS's into
> Herndon HS, Marshall HS, and Falls Church HS.
> Close a TBD ES.
>
> Phase 4 - The closing of WT Woodson with students
> going to the neighboring schools, overflow from
> kids sent Lake Braddock will change those
> boundaries with current LB students sent to
> Annandale and Robinson.
>
> There's more but it's useless to explain so sit
> back, chill, and accept that it is going to happen
> and you can't do a thing about it.

Nice post - too bad it's mostly full of crap. Even this School Board isn't stupid enough to close Woodson right after renovating it. And Fairfax HS has almost as many students now as Oakton, so there's little chance Oakton students will be sent there.

Dumb ass.

Lets just face facts here, this is a COUNTY wide school system. It's nice to have a little town school if you live in a nice little town in New England, but the reality is Clifton ES is part of FCPS and we need to do what is good for the whole county not just Clifton. Close the school.

Facefacts apparently doesn't know all the facts. There are several small schools in FCPS it's just that nobody is talking about closing those schools.

Clifton is a Community School which is mentioned numerous times in that video.

As far as what is good for the whole County, the Fed Department of Education Secretary (which is basically FCPS boss) is now pushing FOR Community Schools. Liz Bradsher (who is the Board Representative for Clifton and many of the other schools) ran for her office saying one of the things she would work toward was "Community Schools..." .

If the BOE closes Clifton, than you have to question what is really going on here because it won't look like they are supporting Community Schools like the Fed Department of Education Secretary is telling them to do and it also would suggest they might be going against campaign promises.....

Invest the money in a new school/site. Jesus is this the frontier? Well water, no room for expansion. Oh and at less than 400 kids this school is quaint but hardly suitable for a large Metro area.

Get on the bus rich folks and enjoy the diversity. Hell, maybe we could spend the money on keeping Immersion or music for our schools!

dono Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Invest the money in a new school/site. Jesus is
> this the frontier? Well water, no room for
> expansion. Oh and at less than 400 kids this
> school is quaint but hardly suitable for a large
> Metro area.
>
> Get on the bus rich folks and enjoy the diversity.
> Hell, maybe we could spend the money on keeping
> Immersion or music for our schools!

Dono - Why do you think this is related to diversity? It's just a building. There is nothing stopping them from just changing the boundaries anytime they want and creating diversity if that is the issue. Some of the overcrowded schools are closer to Clifton Elementary than where they are talking about building the new school! Most parents would rather have their children closer to their own community because of transportation, traffic issues etc.

Plus, you are right and it is a metro area which means it is going to continue to grow! By the time they pass a bond and build a new school, the new school will already be at capacity or overcrowded! As a metro area, where are they going to put a new building if they close Clifton? They are already working at getting it on public water. Talk about short term thinking! No wonder America is in a financial mess right now -- too many people that "dono" and always thinking short term. It would be better to think about how to keep kids out of trailers than to worry about music programs.

I do not think it is at all about diversity.

I do think the site is functionally obsolete as a public school. The water and expansion issue render it same. Long term the school is not viable. A band aid fix of upgrading the water is simply throwing good money after bad for a tiny school with no expansion in my opinion.

All the schools pull students from surrounding areas to maximize the efficiency of the system. I am not sure Clifton is efficient enough to warrant upgrading is it?

This is for dono. You obviously have never stepped foot on the property or been in the school, you are just taking what you have been told for the truth. The school is in terrific condition and there is room for expansion if that was deemed necessary to retain it. The families who attend the school will tell you they would rather keep the school just as it is and use the money for other schools if that would help in keeping the school. As for the water, the school has been on well water for over 100 years and it doesn't hinder the kids from getting a great education and no one is walking around deformed and glowing in the dark. Only now is it becoming an issue?? You are fooling yourself if you don't think other factors are involved in calling for it's closure.

dono Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I do not think it is at all about diversity.
>
> I do think the site is functionally obsolete as a
> public school. The water and expansion issue
> render it same. Long term the school is not
> viable. A band aid fix of upgrading the water is
> simply throwing good money after bad for a tiny
> school with no expansion in my opinion.
>
> All the schools pull students from surrounding
> areas to maximize the efficiency of the system. I
> am not sure Clifton is efficient enough to warrant
> upgrading is it?


Regarding expansion, think of the expansion to the FCPS school system as a whole and then you will see that it is critical to keep Clifton open long term. The County has already been indicating there are no other School Board owned sites available to build in that area besides Liberty Middle. Once the new school is built and overcrowded, it will require that Clifton be open. The Town has already requested that water be brought down to the town so the process of getting an upgrade has already been started by the Town itself. That is a huge area and eventually it will be the only place in that huge area that will be on public water suitable for a school. Let's think long term and keep the kids in Fairfax out of trailers!

Plus, it isn't like it is a question of either renovate Clifton or build a new school. Regardless of what happens with Clifton, a future bond and CIP would have to include funding for a new school anyway.

Clifton Elementary will remain open for the same reason that our Langley kids will NEVER be redistricted. MONEY!

CAPS and SLEEP failed because they were all mouth and no money.

Plus lawsuits are an expensive crapshoot. You can lose even with the finest attorneys and unlimited financial resources.

Much better to put the money towards the purchase of school board members. Like most people (and ALL politicians), school board members have their price. If our friends to the south meet that price, their school stays open.

See how it works, folks? Bake sales to raise nickels and dimes for silly lawsuits and hundreds of pages of drivel posted on silly websites don't do shit!
You need to write checks with lots of zeroes on them!



(I'm not addressing this to you Cliftonites, as I'm sure you're aware of how the system works, or you wouldn't have achieved the success that you have. This is for the poor people that can only scream "THAT'S NOT FAIRRRRR!" when they get fucked by the "system".)

Alright well here's an idea. FCPS won't renovate becuase it will be really expensive to renovate/expand Clifton ES. Well everyone who lives in CLifton is rich, why not have everybody in Clifton make a healthy donation. They can pay for the water hookup and the lots of $$$ it will cost to build a second floor or in the courtyard.

Of course all the clifton people will be offended at this suggestion, so here is one for FCPS: Fuck the school. Pay for the water hookup so they can get public water and leave it at that. They don't want a renovation so screw em. Maybe give it a fresh coat of paint or replace the bathroom fixtures. Nothing else.

I didnt know the County was run to benefit one small town. Lets just do a fund raiser for Clifton residents to raise money for their school - we could throw in funds for the coffee shop too as it does not look quite big enough for the community. why I will bet many of the homes lack garage-door-openers too.

dono Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I didnt know the County was run to benefit one
> small town. Lets just do a fund raiser for
> Clifton residents to raise money for their school
> - we could throw in funds for the coffee shop too
> as it does not look quite big enough for the
> community. why I will bet many of the homes lack
> garage-door-openers too.


If only the County WERE run to benefit one small town, Clifton would alraedy have public water to the Town, etc. etc. Instead, Clifton residents pay a higher porportion of taxes for far less County resources than other areas. The fundraiser is a great idea though -- they could charge people speeding through Town as a cut through to Manassas every night and the ones that throw trash out the window for the residents to pick up out of their front yards could get charged double. The ones that are dangerously tailgating behind Moms with kids in the back of thair car could get tripled fined. Within a year, the renovations would be paid for!

Those living inside the Clifton Elementary School attendance zone aren't looking for special treatment, they just want equal consideration that is given to all other schools. If the average figure for a renovation to an elementary school in Fairfax is $28,000 a student (based on the studies, there are 2 different figures quoted), then plan the renovation at Clifton using one of those figures. It can be done. Also, the water issue can be addressed. How do you think Loudoun and Prince William feed their sprinkler systems at their schools on wells? With storage tanks (above and/or below ground) and high pressure pumps. It can be done people and at a much lower cost than $19M for the building and $3M for water!

Fairfax County seems to pride itself on the quality of our educated citizenry. Tap into that pool of people. Solve the issues of overcrowding and renovations by engaging the people impacted by it and in the end you likely will wind up spending considerably less to resolve the problems and will have solutions resulting in many more satisfied residents.