***** Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Read. Think.
>
> A school form was used.

So then other than the fact that a form was either improperly used or not used, logistically nothing would actually have been done differently. Just a paperwork issue for the bureaucracies and lawyers at the Office of Circumlocution.

omgomgomgomgomg! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ***** Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > Read. Think.
> >
> > A school form was used.
>
> So then other than the fact that a form was either
> improperly used or not used, logistically nothing
> would actually have been done differently. Just a
> paperwork issue for the bureaucracies and lawyers
> at the Office of Circumlocution.

The logistics are not the issue. Liability is the issue.
This is not a stupid paperwork drill.

You can't go indicating to parents (by using a school form) that something is a school activity if it is not.
Teachers do not have the authority to send out a 152 without the written permission of the principal.
If this was a Booster activity, they did not obtain proper permission from the parents which is a major, HUGE liability issue for them.

Wake up.

***** Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The logistics are not the issue. Liability is the
> issue. This is not a stupid paperwork drill.

I understand what you are saying. But you were deliberately attempting to obfuscate/compound the issue by implying there was a safety concern.

And why drag in the current the principal's name? You do realize he was not the principal when those documents were drafted and promulgated?

omgomgomgomgomg! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ***** Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The logistics are not the issue. Liability is
> the
> > issue. This is not a stupid paperwork drill.
>
> I understand what you are saying. But you were
> deliberately attempting to obfuscate/compound the
> issue by implying there was a safety concern.
>
> And why drag in the current the principal's name?
> You do realize he was not the principal when those
> documents were drafted and promulgated?



There IS a safety concern. People sign a school form, think things are taken care of, only to find out they maybe aren't.

I do realize they had a principal change. Dr. Copeland's staff still could not find the appropriate documents. That is a fact. So, if the former principal
DID sign the trip, they didn't keep track of this very, very important document. I said the principal might not have signed it off. That could be the new or the old. The old principal could have signed it and not filed it properly, either.

Basically, none of the possible situations are any good.

***** Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > > The logistics are not the issue. Liability is the
> > > issue.

Answer 1.

> > > > There IS a safety concern.

Answer 2.

--------------------

So now you change your story - you did and are now arguing that improper use of forms is in fact endangering children even though logistically and as a practical matter NOTHING would have been done differently other than using a different form.

omgomgomgomgomg! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ***** Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > > > The logistics are not the issue. Liability
> is the
> > > > issue.
>
> Answer 1.
>
> > > > > There IS a safety concern.
>
> Answer 2.
>
> --------------------
>
> So now you change your story - you did and are now
> arguing that improper use of forms is in fact
> endangering children even though logistically and
> as a practical matter NOTHING would have been done
> differently other than using a different form.


The correct forms and procedures make all the difference when you are looking at mitigating risk and structuring liability. No change in story. The parents were going to be driving the kids around no matter what. When officers in a non-profit do not obtain proper permission and release of liability for things like this they are setting themselves up for problems. If the school system is allowing their forms to be used for a Booster function (the teacher handed out the form), or doesn't follow the proper protocol for forms and permission slips if it is their function, they are exposing themselves to huge risk and liability. And yes, if the drivers are not registered and prove licensure and insurance this is a potential risk for students. You can have problems even if they do this, but at least the effort was made to do things properly.

I think this discussion is far too advanced for someone like you but you can say whatever you want because the more you talk the more you sound not too bright....

***** Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I think this discussion is far too advanced for
> someone like you but you can say whatever you want
> because the more you talk the more you sound not
> too bright....

Well, you are after all posting on this forum so I think that speaks volumes as to how bright you are.

That being said, it is telling that you are resorting once again to ad hominem attacks now that you have been caught trying to downplay your original unreasonable assertions.

Setting aside your 147 words of hand-waving - all of which is obvious and none of which I necessarily disagree with - your argument that using an incorrect form is a safety issue is disingenuous and overstated. You can make your point without resorting to secondary issues.

omgomgomgomgomg! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ***** Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > I think this discussion is far too advanced for
> > someone like you but you can say whatever you
> want
> > because the more you talk the more you sound
> not
> > too bright....
>
> Well, you are after all posting on this forum so I
> think that speaks volumes as to how bright you
> are.
>
> That being said, it is telling that you are
> resorting once again to ad hominem attacks now
> that you have been caught trying to downplay your
> original unreasonable assertions.
>
> Setting aside your 147 words of hand-waving - all
> of which is obvious and none of which I
> necessarily disagree with - your argument that
> using an incorrect form is a safety issue is
> disingenuous and overstated. You can make your
> point without resorting to secondary issues.



You are one of many major whiners. It sure isn't my fault Westfield can't provide the information they are supposed to have. So, Mrs. Pierce, just what did you do? Is Administration throwing you under the old bus?

***** Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> You are one of many major whiners.

Haven't whined at all. Just establishing that you are embellishing and overdramatizing. Consider the job accomplished. I fully agree if procedures ate not being followed that they should be. Don't think anyone disagrees with that.

Keep in mind that this is the school district were students are no longer allowed to hold an empty glass beaker in science glass without wearing goggles. What is the world coming to. Fairfax parents coddle their kids WAY to much, and this has only passed into the school system.

My elementary school had a Thanksgiving luncheon and the staff allowed parents to bring in the food. First of all, Thanksgiving is a quasi-religious holiday so I don't understand why my child has to be exposed to this but more importantly how can FCPS just allow any parent to actually bring food into the school for other kids to eat without the home establishment being inspected and certified by the Fairfax County Health Department Environmental Health Specialists (EHS)? The liability involved in letting anyone off the street bring food into the school for other kids is HUGE! I would like to see FCPS at least notify all parents that non-inspected food sources will be supplying food and require all parents to sign a waiver acknowledging the same. Music might be important but food poisoning can kill you.

omgomgomgomgomg! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ***** Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > I think this discussion is far too advanced for
> > someone like you but you can say whatever you
> want
> > because the more you talk the more you sound
> not
> > too bright....
>
> Well, you are after all posting on this forum so I
> think that speaks volumes as to how bright you
> are.
>
> That being said, it is telling that you are
> resorting once again to ad hominem attacks now
> that you have been caught trying to downplay your
> original unreasonable assertions.
>
> Setting aside your 147 words of hand-waving - all
> of which is obvious and none of which I
> necessarily disagree with - your argument that
> using an incorrect form is a safety issue is
> disingenuous and overstated. You can make your
> point without resorting to secondary issues.


I am actually relatively bright. There were a lot of very highly educated people (many attorneys and EdD's, some School Board members, and a few CPA's) who simply could not grasp or accept the school regulations and state educational and public records laws that I pointed out. They thought they didn't apply for some reason....So much for all those fancy degrees. Common sense can be amazing.

FFU is a great place to discuss things. Gets the word out, people can say whatever they want, etc. If you can get beyond some of the nut jobs exercising their right of free speech, it is very useful.

I am not downplaying anything. You are just going off the deep end. The Westfield situation stands firm as seriously messed up. The school system cannot prove that the teacher obtained permission from the principal to distribute a field trip permission form to dozens of students. That is a Big Deal.

Mrs. Pierce, can you explain your actions? You are required to follow school policies. Your license depends on that. Did you?

***** Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You are just going off the deep end.

See there you go again. You were making sense and seemed reasonable, but no, you had to drop another gratuitous insult. Explain in detail exactly how anything I said is "going off the deep end."

All I am saying is that you included unnecessary and disingenuous accusations that using the wrong form is endangering children and is a safety issue. I say that is hyperbole. I say that as a practical matter "Tag day" would have been run in the exact same way and in the exact same manner with the exact same people no matter what form had been used. You argue otherwise with a non sequitur about liability.

Hey, Mrs. Barb Brown of Oakton, if you're going to name people on this forum, then you need to be out in the open as well.

Last year looks virtually the same....................!?
Attachments:

Here's the problem, darling.

You have made it impossible for Boosters to do their job. We are DROWNING in poor kids and your enforcement of an IRS regulation has made it impossible to support them.

Most Boosters clubs are trying to do their best for their children, the program, and other peoples' children. No personal profit involved.

The IRS regulation involved is just that- a court ruling- not a law.

This IRS regulation, created by unelected judges, defeats the purpose of Booster clubs.

Formerly, an industrious poor student could bust their butt selling cookie dough, car washes, taking three shifts at TAG day, and earn the money for an expensive trip to New York.

This teaches and rewards individual work and motivation, which is what built our country. No child was limited by his parents inability to pay.

Now, fundraising efforts are REDISTRIBUTED to all children.
No motivation to work hard.
No reward for effort.
Do you wonder why fundraising totals are down?

The end result is that the parents who CAN pay more, do.
The kids who used to earn their way now suck off the public teat.
Great lesson, no?

Booster Reevolt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here's the problem, darling.
>
> You have made it impossible for Boosters to do
> their job. We are DROWNING in poor kids and your
> enforcement of an IRS regulation has made it
> impossible to support them.
>
> Most Boosters clubs are trying to do their best
> for their children, the program, and other
> peoples' children. No personal profit involved.
>
> The IRS regulation involved is just that- a court
> ruling- not a law.
>
> This IRS regulation, created by unelected judges,
> defeats the purpose of Booster clubs.
>
> Formerly, an industrious poor student could bust
> their butt selling cookie dough, car washes,
> taking three shifts at TAG day, and earn the money
> for an expensive trip to New York.
>
> This teaches and rewards individual work and
> motivation, which is what built our country. No
> child was limited by his parents inability to
> pay.
>
> Now, fundraising efforts are REDISTRIBUTED to all
> children.
> No motivation to work hard.
> No reward for effort.
> Do you wonder why fundraising totals are down?
>
> The end result is that the parents who CAN pay
> more, do.
> The kids who used to earn their way now suck off
> the public teat.
> Great lesson, no?


THANK YOU FOR POSTING THIS! I am too an involved booster parent and I can say that our fundraising has taken a significant hit this year. Students are not going on trips because they can't afford them. Spreading the 'wealth' and taking $1000 off the total cost of a trip does not help kids. By doing this we can only take $25 or $50 off someones $700 or $800 trip which does not make it easier financially for them to go. These kids in music programs ( band, orchestras, etc ) work VERY hard practicing and performing because they are following a passion in music that they have. They may not all end up going on to be a professional musician, but we should all foster that love that they do have for something they enjoy.

^^^^Don't go pinning the fundraising and IFA problems on *****. ***** stayed out of the IFA cesspool. This is between you, the IRS, and the Comptroller. Don't go "darling" me. You are directing your anger at the wrong entity on that one.

I suggest instead of the kids busting their butts selling stuff for a Booster club that they focus on getting some babysitting jobs, mowing some yard, etc. to pay for their trips. There are plenty of kids who do this and pay for their trips themselves.

***** focused on getting public records public, public money in heavily insured accounts, policies that complied with school regulations and state educational laws being developed and enforced. That's it.

And no, you can't have mandatory fundraising. That is just the way it is. I personally suggested NUMEROUS TIMES quitting using your fundraising for reducing the price of the trips because it was going to have to be split evenly, which accomplishes very little to lower the cost per student. I did the math and brought this up about two years ago. I was scoffed at. I told you so. Have everybody make their own arrangements for financing the trips and use your money for instrument purchases, etc. If people can't afford the trips, then they need to stay home. If too many can't afford the trips, then take less expensive trips. People need to understand that a Booster club is not going to take care of all of their personal financial problems. You aren't everybody's Sugar Daddy. People can only take advantage of you if you ALLOW them to take advantage of you.

Every single Band program is getting five figures of appropriated funds for Marching Band. Some programs are now able to charge a much larger fee than they ever were for classes. The poor kids' fees for classes are supposed to be covered out of the Equal Opportunity fund with the school system. This is not a Booster issue so don't volunteer to cover for these kids. This is very clearly spelled out in the Fee Notice thanks to *****. It was a closely guarded secret and the school system USED you guys all these years. ***** helped put an end to that secrecy.

If the kids can't afford the trips, they can't afford the trips. They are OPTIONAL.

If you work this right you should be better off than you ever were.

http://www.kentucky.com/latest-news/article43986813.html
http://www.kentucky.com/latest-news/article43971831.html

Here. Why don't you contact these people and talk about what happened and lay off of *****. I am staying out of it.


These people had to hold fundraisers to pay their $30,000 IRS fine.

You can still have a great experience in a music program without a $1000 optional trip to Orlando. When you can't afford something, you have to make very hard choices and do without some things. That is a fact of life. I don't know why you feel obligated to make sure every single child in these programs goes on these trips. Is the teacher pressuring you? Let them pay for it. Their class fees are picked up by the school system. At least, they are SUPPOSED to be picked up by the school system. A Booster club is not a bottomless pit of money. I know you mean well, but you have to draw the line at some point. You can't be everything to everybody. You look at what you are able to raise and make some hard choices. Do you subsidize an optional trip or replace a set of tympani and a bass drum, or replace a string bass. Once people realize the choices that have to be made and the limitations of the money supply, hopefully they will start encouraging their children to get a job during the summer. The pool companies are desperate for certified lifeguards. They will sometimes provide free training or training for a minimal fee. You can frequently call your own hours because they are really hurting for qualified guards. The indoor pools also are hurting for guards during the school year. Yes, they might have to work weekends, but I think they learn more by doing this than by getting a handout from a Booster club that is frowned upon by the IRS and putting the club in danger of being fined.

You chose to set yourselves up as a non-profit and obligated yourselves to follow IRS non-profit stipulations. Quit whining.

This is between the Boosters, the IRS, and the Comptroller. If you want to pick a fight, it is between all of you.

And I do believe that the poor oversight of these programs, with families being charged for things nobody had any right to charge them for, resulted in some very unrealistic expectations. Those might have to be adjusted, also. Yes, this is hard. But, you chose to put your child into public school. Public school has limitations. They are called state educational laws. They are mandatory. And the teachers chose to teach in public school.

Not every school in FCPS has the moneybags that Oakton HS does, and those schools are the ones that desperately need the most fundraising. And instead of spending it on much needed equipment, they invest most of it directly towards helping the students with trips, so that these children whose families can't afford to rub 2 nickels together can actually perform with their bands at HersheyPark, experience the thrill of being in an award winning band, and continue laying into High School and beyond.

Go visit a Middle school like Glasgow, Twain, Whitman, Key, Poe, Sandburg etc. where the FRL student population is high. Go into the band rooms. Notice the broken down instruments that were purchased 40+ years ago. The reason they don't spend fundraiser $ on instruments is because they are spend in programs helping the kids. And yes, the county should replace that equipment, but hasn't been funded appropriately in 20 years to do so.

Your personal war against fundraising since you were kicked out of the Oakton Band Boosters a few years ago have wreaked havoc on the ability for music programs, especially those in less wealthy communities, to provide experiences for students. Period. And as much as you blab about how YOU think you are doing the right thing, you have buried your head in the sand to how it has directly shrunk music programs, and the amount of students able to experience music in FCPS.

***** Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ^^^^Don't go pinning the fundraising and IFA
> problems on *****. ***** stayed out of the IFA
> cesspool. This is between you, the IRS, and the
> Comptroller. Don't go "darling" me. You are
> directing your anger at the wrong entity on that
> one.
>
> I suggest instead of the kids busting their butts
> selling stuff for a Booster club that they focus
> on getting some babysitting jobs, mowing some
> yard, etc. to pay for their trips. There are
> plenty of kids who do this and pay for their trips
> themselves.

Except most of the kids needing help come from a background where this kind of industriousness is foreign to them. That's why there's no money in the first place. Boosters provide the structure, opportunity and goal to make work worthwhile.

We're not talking $1000 trips. Our top trip was under $400 for two days in NYC seeing a show, having a singing/dancing clinic from a Broadway cast and visiting the Met, experiences that even the more well to do kids would never have on their own.

This is enrichment. And fundraising together is teambuilding for those who choose to take advantage of it.


>
> ***** focused on getting public records public,
> public money in heavily insured accounts, policies
> that complied with school regulations and state
> educational laws being developed and enforced.
> That's it.

Oh good-more bureaucracy to keep the dwindling number of parent VOLUNTEERS out of the school. More bureaucracy and greater costs to the school. Fab.
>
> And no, you can't have mandatory fundraising. That
> is just the way it is. I personally suggested
> NUMEROUS TIMES quitting using your fundraising for
> reducing the price of the trips because it was
> going to have to be split evenly, which
> accomplishes very little to lower the cost per
> student. I did the math and brought this up about
> two years ago. I was scoffed at. I told you so.
> Have everybody make their own arrangements for
> financing the trips and use your money for
> instrument purchases, etc. If people can't afford
> the trips, then they need to stay home.

Good answer- let's take away program enrichment from those who might benefit the most. Let's make sure they're only fit for gubmint assistance for the rest of their lives.


> If too many can't afford the trips, then take less
> expensive trips. People need to understand that a
> Booster club is not going to take care of all of
> their personal financial problems. You aren't
> everybody's Sugar Daddy. People can only take
> advantage of you if you ALLOW them to take
> advantage of you.
> If the kids can't afford the trips, they can't
> afford the trips. They are OPTIONAL.


If we can't take the trips, my kid suffers too. No I can't afford private school. Yes I'm stuck in a failing school system with children who drag mine down with them. Boosters was one way to fight back against this. Not all of the county is Oakton - some of us are on the front line of poverty and illegals.

>
> If you work this right you should be better off
> than you ever were.

Of course. Let's see-
-fewer volunteers due to increased regulation and
-reduced fundraising results, both of which mean
-volunteers must spend more time supporting their activity.
The primary goal of boosters is Program enrichment. The primary job of boosters is FUNDRAISING. When you tie our hands we have to spend more time in that activity. With less funds, we help fewer kids.

How many kids were started on a better path because of Booster programs? These are often kids who don't succeed academically, who don't have a good family structure, but find this one reed to cling to.

Thanks for opening my eyes. Looks like we're better off already.

There cannot be mandatory fundraising. That isn't compliant with public school procedures. Booster clubs had no right over the years to be demanding money from parents and setting a mandatory fundraising or donation goal because their child signed up for a class. Booster clubs can do some great things but they overstepped their authority when they did this. Get over it. Those days are gone. You can talk teambuilding all you want, but fundraising is OPTIONAL. This isn't a war on fundraising. This is enforcing the limitations of public school. There is plenty of teambuilding in pulling together a major (or minor) musical production.

You do the best you can with the money that you are able to raise. With a more stable fee structure and the appropriated funds, there should be a good solid base of financial support and generally less need for huge fundraising efforts.

The school should be charging a specific amount of money to rent the marching uniforms, instead of counting on "whatever is left over". That is too big of an expense. Replacing those uniforms is not solely a Booster problem.

I just don't see where giving a kid a trip is going to necessarily promote a better life for them. You are teaching them that somebody else will pay their way for things they cannot afford. Nice idea, but if you can't sustain it, then you need to be very careful with your dollars. These trips are optional. There are plenty of kids who don't qualify for government aid who either don't go on these trips or have to earn all or part of the costs due to family financial needs. If you think that $50 a child is going to make all the difference on a $400 trip, you are kidding yourself.

You have two choices when things are tight. Subsidize a totally optional experience, or buy things like musical instruments and additional instructors. I don't see where sending kids to play a concert and go on a roller coaster hundreds of miles away is essential to music education. It is a fun thing to do. It is a luxury. Nice if you can afford it. It sounds like you can't. You could also cut the catered meals for 150. These kids can pack lunch or make a stop at a food court and pay out of pocket. Spending $20,000 on group meals is totally not necessary.

Your fundraising issues are between you and the IRS and the Comptroller.

If one tuba player out of 12 from Lake Braddck doesn't go on the trip because they choose not to, it's not going to be a big effect. However, if the sole Tuba player from Mount Vernon can't go in a trip because they can't afford to go, it affects the sound of the whole band. Mind you, tuba players don't grw on trees...if you're lucky enough to start a student who's interested, you also need to have instruments for them to play, and transportation because tubas aren't allowed on the bus. It's a hell of a lot more difficult to build a well rounded band when cost, availability and transportation are issues. And then you gave to be able to keep the integrity of the music...when you lose even one or 2 critical players, everyone suffers. Luckily, the kind of kids who forge through as individualists like tuba players often realize how important it is that they do everything they can to help the band, and ven if they can't raise enough to go on a trip, will try very hard.

This is an all too common example in areas of the county that you are not familiar with, Barb.

1. Our fundraising is not mandatory.
2. Our trips are inexpensive and program related.
3. Previous fundraising allowed kids to earn the majority of trip costs, and totals were higher, thus leaving us with more to offset costs for needy.
4. If we can't include the poor kids, eventually no one gets to go.
5. We were teaching them to work for it. Now we're not.

We are talking about two different worlds. I know at least seven children from terrible backgrounds who've had travel experiences and scholarships they would never have otherwise. Those do make a long-term difference- sorry you are too blind and selfish to see it.

>You could also cut the catered meals for 150. These kids can pack lunch or >make a stop at a food court and pay out of pocket. Spending $20,000 on group >meals is totally not necessary.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Our school has never had that kind of money. Sounds like you had a school problem and you laid low the rest of us.

>You could also cut the catered meals for 150. These kids can pack lunch or >make a stop at a food court and pay out of pocket. Spending $20,000 on group >meals is totally not necessary.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Our school has never had that kind of money. Sounds like you had a school problem and you laid low the rest of us.

---------------->>>>

Madison.

"5. We were teaching them to work for it. Now we're not."


It kind of sounds like you were teaching them to circumvent the IRS, which I would bet a lot of their parents are also doing, which is shifting things to those of us who just pay the darn taxes because we don't want to get caught with tax fraud and there isn't any way out of it.

I don't know. I am staying out of it. This is between you, the IRS, and the Comptroller.

Call up somebody in Kentucky and see how they felt after they paid those $30,000 in fines. Sounds like the IRS didn't give a hoot about their good intentions. Oh well. They had to have a fundraiser to pay their IRS fines. I would bet that went over really well...........! Did they tell people the purpose of the fundraiser? We are in trouble with the IRS and we want you to help us pay our fines. Right............

Fundraising is optional. That is just the way it is, so get used to it.

http://henryclayband.org/boosters/

Here is the contact information. I am sure they would love to talk about what went on.

http://www.bryanstationbaseball.com/boosters-1.html

These people were fined over $60,000. Call Billy up and talk it over with him.

http://www.lafayetteband.org/2015-2016-lba-board-of-directors/

Or try this bunch.

BTW, ***** was not kicked out of a Booster group. They almost filed charges against a parent who abused their child, they almost sued the School Board (more than once) for failure to obtain and produce public records, they basically completely ignored a Booster pro bono attorney and laughed him off, and they told multiple complete maniacs to shut up and one in particular to blow it out her rear end, but they did not get kicked out. Let us set the record straight on that.

Happy Thanksgiving.

:>D

Very interesting that you see it that at Barb. Sort of like you think you are doing the right thing now. Only trouble is, no one then or now agrees with your delusional self-righteousness.

If you don't like the state educational laws or the public records laws then you need to take it up with your legislators. Too damn bad.

Perceptions are interesting Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Very interesting that you see it that at Barb.
> Sort of like you think you are doing the right
> thing now. Only trouble is, no one then or now
> agrees with your delusional self-righteousness.


There are a lot of people on this thread with some very mixed up perceptions, but ***** is not one of them. There are a lot of people on this thread (and working through the details on this subject) who are delusional. ***** is not one of them.

You all need to get beyond your perceptions and delusions, quit whining, and get your acts together. These are public transactions that are subject to open discussion.

You can blame this all on the administrators who could not their acts together, as well as the nutcases in the original Booster group. Go take it out on them. Call your legislator. Change the laws. Whatever.

Why are you talking about yourself is third person? Do you really think you are anonymous? It's plainly obvious which posts are yours by your word choice and writing style. Do you think talking about ***** as if you are a second party lends support to your statements by making it look like there are multiple people agreeing with you?

Barb Brown is delusional.

As others have pointed out - if one analyzes her comments and responses on the various threads - it is obvious she has narcissistic personality disorder at the very least. If I was employed in any capacity at FCPS I would have a restraining order in place. You can never be too safe.

"If I was employed in any capacity at FCPS I would have a restraining order in place."

This is too funny. You can't put a restraining order on FOIA. It doesn't exist. You can ask for anything you want and do whatever you want with it. Oh well.

FCPS was in gross violation of state educational laws for a very, very long time. They also had multiple-MULTIPLE- FOIA violations over this. Like 10 or 15. Minimum. They allowed these parent groups to run wild with their programs. They should just be glad nobody sued. They should be glad nobody lost their licenses.

Booster Reevolt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here's the problem, darling.
>
> You have made it impossible for Boosters to do
> their job. We are DROWNING in poor kids and your
> enforcement of an IRS regulation has made it
> impossible to support them.
>

---------Maybe if you quit supporting these kids people who can't afford to live here will quit coming to this county. They flock to Fairfax because they like the schools and services they can get for free or discounted. So, quit giving them fancy trips to ride roller coasters and stay in nice hotels and maybe they won't like it so much. Maybe they will leave and tell their friends to not come here. That would be nice.



> Most Boosters clubs are trying to do their best
> for their children, the program, and other
> peoples' children. No personal profit involved.

----------It was personal profit. I think that was the problem.


>
> The IRS regulation involved is just that- a court
> ruling- not a law.


---------A court ruling, you said? "Just" a court ruling? What exactly do you think that means? They base court rulings on laws, don't they?



>
> This IRS regulation, created by unelected judges,
> defeats the purpose of Booster clubs.


--------The IRS says no personal gain in a nonprofit. If Booster clubs decided to ignore this, that was stupid. Change your purpose to something that makes the IRS happy. Who existed first-the IRS or the Booster clubs?


>
> Formerly, an industrious poor student could bust
> their butt selling cookie dough, car washes,
> taking three shifts at TAG day, and earn the money
> for an expensive trip to New York.
>
> This teaches and rewards individual work and
> motivation, which is what built our country. No
> child was limited by his parents inability to
> pay.
>
> Now, fundraising efforts are REDISTRIBUTED to all
> children.
> No motivation to work hard.
> No reward for effort.
> Do you wonder why fundraising totals are down?
>
> The end result is that the parents who CAN pay
> more, do.
> The kids who used to earn their way now suck off
> the public teat.


-------They don't get anything from the school system for the trips.



> Great lesson, no?

Johnny Redneck = Barb Brown

trying to deflect attention while at the same time spewing white trash bigotry that she actually believes. It's therapeutic and relieving for her.

http://www.flinthill.org/fine-arts/

Tired of "drowning in poor kids"?

http://www.flinthill.org/fine-arts/music/

You can apply for financial aid.
http://www.flinthill.org/tuition

https://www.gofundme.com/

Truth of the matter is that the IRS is not going to pursue this sort of issue very hard very often. Their position is very unpopular and they get a ton of pressure from politicians every time they try to enforce this interpretation. It's a risk management issue but I wouldn't worry about it that much.

https://www.gofundme.com/mvc.php?route=search&term=school%20trip

irsmessedupagain Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Truth of the matter is that the IRS is not going
> to pursue this sort of issue very hard very often.
> Their position is very unpopular and they get a
> ton of pressure from politicians every time they
> try to enforce this interpretation. It's a risk
> management issue but I wouldn't worry about it
> that much.


Try telling that to the three groups in Kentucky.

http://www.bishopoconnell.org/page.cfm?p=470

http://www.tcsfairfax.org/academics/upper-school-7-12

The course catalog shows their music classes.

http://www.madeira.org/academics/academic-departments/fine-arts/

BTW, to all of you "drowning in poor kids" and thinking that OP is an elitist, my kid went to a middle school that was about 50% free and reduced. The bass drum had a big hole and a bag of Doritos in it. I offered to buy a new one but was told there was money for it. We were never charged any fees for this course, although they had every right to. I would have been happy to pay. My kids also were never charged a fee in high school for main band class. I would have been happy to pay that, also- but only to the school system.

If the schools aren't going to collect their fees, they are missing a major source of revenue. And there are several that aren't (or charging much less than they could) this year. There were a LOT last year. Why walk away from it? Money must grow on trees. But, you can only charge fees in accordance with the 5922 and the VAC. And you can't pressure people into fundraising no matter what you do.

Happy Thanksgiving.

***** Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> BTW, to all of you "drowning in poor kids" and
> thinking that OP is an elitist,

Just to be clear this post referring to "that OP" in the 3rd person - IS THE OP.

Happy Thanksgiving.

schizoidpersonalitydisorder Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ***** Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > BTW, to all of you "drowning in poor kids" and
> > thinking that OP is an elitist,
>
> Just to be clear this post referring to "that OP"
> in the 3rd person - IS THE OP.
>
> Happy Thanksgiving.

AKA Barb Brown of Oakton, VA

Just because your kids are getting free or reduced meals doesn't mean you are also entitiled to get free or reduced trips to Dollywood for them.

No one give them free/reduced trips - they fundraise (or they used to). That's different.

Booster Reevolt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here's the problem, darling.
>
> You have made it impossible for Boosters to do
> their job. We are DROWNING in poor kids and your
> enforcement of an IRS regulation has made it
> impossible to support them.
>

---------Maybe if you quit supporting these kids people who can't afford to live here will quit coming to this county. They flock to Fairfax because they like the schools and services they can get for free or discounted. So, quit giving them fancy trips to ride roller coasters and stay in nice hotels and maybe they won't like it so much. Maybe they will leave and tell their friends to not come here. That would be nice.


Amen. This county is being destroyed. Crime is up. Quality of life is down. Quit encouraging people to come here who drain added resources. There are lots of kids getting assistance with these trips. Many more want it. There just isn't enough money for all this.

There seem to be some frustrations and dilemmas here.

The fundraising problems I have no thoughts on. I am not involved in this and this is between you all, the IRS, your legal and accounting people, and the Comptroller. What happened in Kentucky seems to be a warning for all groups of this type. Are you willing to risk a $30,000 fine? These were public schools, just like you.

Some people are expressing problems with the diverse socioeconomic makeup of their group, and feel that it the constraints are holding their child back, particularly because of the problem of these trips. You probably don't want to move to get into a different school. Private school is not an option. Well, then-

If you are finding it too much of a stretch trying to get enough kids to pull together a performing ensemble and go out of town, maybe you need to quit doing trips and spend your money on extra instructors for sectionals and new instruments. When you get right down to it, a trip is a performance and a theme park, or some tours. Yes, it is fun. However, if it costs $5000-$10,000+ in fundraising, you are having trouble lining up chaperones (some of these programs make chaperones pay their own way-that is a topic in and of itself-why????? Why do people need to pay to help out the school system? Chaperones are a requirement of the school system. This is not a vacation for them.), you are not able to adequately fill your sections, etc., it might be less stressful and more productive to do other things with your money. Everybody benefits from sectionals and specialized instruction. Everybody benefits from new instruments. Lots of groups don't do a big trip. I have seen the plans for every program in the county. I saw numerous cancelled trips, no trip on the calendar, etc. You could sink $10,000 into a trip and still not have enough to fill the seats that you need, because many kids just simply can't afford to go. That is life.

There are summer trips available for students to go to Europe, etc. and perform. They are quite pricey, but are certainly an option for those who can afford it. These trips are presented to Fairfax County kids every year. They are not spopnsored by the school system. However, if you want this type of enrichment, it is available and is a tremendous experience. This might be an easier thing to do than try to provide for dozens of kids who simply can't afford to go to Chicago or whatever so that your child can go, and the sections can be filled. Sometimes kids have to play in more than one group in order to fill the sections. Sometimes they have to switch instruments.

Good luck in figuring this out.

Westfield Band. Yes, Westfield. Again. Still.

The cast of players-
The principal-Dr. Copeland
The Band director-Mr. Johnson
The Booster president- Cindy Ruckert

Read the Guideline directions in the attachment. This has been around for a while. Note the section about Boosters not being allowed access to Student ID numbers. Note the word "prohibited". Do you all understand what that means? That means that Boosters are not supposed to be given access to student ID numbers. Just like they are not supposed to have access to grades and other student information that is protected by FERPA.

Parents, do NOT give your child's student ID number to a Booster club. They are not authorized to be dealing with these numbers. Do you understand this?

Dr. Copeland and Mr. Johnson-a staff member was supposed to approve all communications to parents from Booster clubs. Whose responsibility was this?

Ms. Ruckert-Did you read the Guidelines? This was part of your responsibility. This is very obvious. This issue has been brought up for at least two years, because lots of Booster groups were messing with the ID numbers. One was having parents write the numbers on checks. The bank doesn't have the right to this information, either. Who do you think you are asking for protected information? What exactly did you do with these numbers? Put them into an unencrypted, non-secure computer system? Leave them lying around somebody's house?

Do all of you understand FERPA-protected information? That means that the Feds don't want you to release certain information to certain people. LIKE ID NUMBERS TO BOOSTER CLUBS. (Or grades.) Do you all understand the ultimate penalty for failure to comply with the Federal privacy mandates? YOU CAN LOSE YOUR FEDERAL FUNDING. It doesn't matter if it hasn't happened. It still means that somebody can make a house call and ruin your day and ask what the Hell you were thinking and what are you going to do to fix this and prevent this in the future. I am sure Dr. Garza would love a visit from the Feds.

So, Ms. Ruckert, you need to clean up your Booster registration form. Dr. Copeland and Mr. Johnson, you need to tell Ms. Ruckert, and any future Booster president, to NOT do this. You need to figure out what these busy volunteers who want so desperately to help you have been doing with your FERPA PROTECTED INFORMATION that they were PROHIBITED TO HAVE ACCESS TO that YOU ALLOWED THEM TO MESS WITH and try to fix this mess. So you don't get a visit from a Federal official asking what the Hell you have been doing.

Is this very clear?
Attachments:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/prohibit

Giving a volunteer a student ID number is like allowing a student access to the teacher's grade records. Which has also happened........

Some folks look for answers,others look for fights.
Playing, playing in the band...

GD FCPS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Some folks look for answers,others look for
> fights.
> Playing, playing in the band...

I look for answers and professional work product that complies with local, state, and Federal obligations. All these people are required to do this.

It is the people who don't do their jobs properly that are fighting.

***** Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> GD FCPS Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Some folks look for answers,others look for
> > fights.
> > Playing, playing in the band...
>
> I look for answers and professional work product
> that complies with local, state, and Federal
> obligations. All these people are required to do
> this.
>
> It is the people who don't do their jobs properly
> that are fighting.


I seriously have never seen such highly educated adults with licenses on the line throw temper tantrums like 2 year olds when asked to do their jobs properly. They whine, they argue, they wail, they hurl ugly remarks at the person who pays their salary.... It really is amazing to watch. They waste a huge amount of time trying to get out of doing their jobs properly. If they would just cooperate things would get fixed much quicker. But, they like to make a scene, try to dodge their responsibilities, and go to numerous working lunches and dinners at expensive restaurants to argue about things which does nothing but make them look like fools and add to the expense of fixing what was a very dangerous situation. They in general would rather be on the golf course.

Want me to name a few illustrious admins?

As for the volunteers who refuse to follow directions, their groups should be banned from doing business with students and families. There are a lot of those.

This has been an epic.

No one cares. No one has to answer to you despite what you think. You are not in charge. Sucks to be you...

Are you retired, or just that much free time?

Is it your goal to kill music programs, or are you really so delusional that you think band directors are getting rich from this?

You are sadly mistaken if you think they are, and I'm sad for you that you have nothing better to do with your time.

Shawn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Are you retired, or just that much free time?
>
> Is it your goal to kill music programs, or are you
> really so delusional that you think band directors
> are getting rich from this?
>
> You are sadly mistaken if you think they are, and
> I'm sad for you that you have nothing better to do
> with your time.


Psychopath Barb Brown of Oakton, VA is the OP in this post. She is a former band booster of the Oakton Band.

I am contributing 1,000 blowjobs at the special rate of $10.00 each. That should help with finances.

Not retired, just organized.

Not trying to kill music programs. You all were going to kill them yourselves at the rate you were going. The Boosters and the school system were in violation of so many Federal, state, and local laws and regulations it was incredible that they didn't get called on it a lot earlier. Did you forget about the appropriated funds that were allocated for the music programs? They should have been receiving those all along. They have to fund required things. They weren't. It was unbelievable that the music teachers had to figure out a way to pay for the assessments, etc. that are mandatory. Ridiculous.

The salary for the Band directors is between them and the school system.
Their "fringe benefits" are between them and their Booster clubs. If they want the money to go for special things for them, or pay friends of theirs who don't show up to work, etc. instead of things for the program then they will have to live with that decision. Just don't go whining about not having enough money.

You're a little hard to follow, because you're all over the place.

Do you even know anymore what you're trying to accomplish?

If you really wanted to be helpful then why wouldn't you reach out to the band directors?

"Hi, I'm a concerned citizen who would like to ensure the longevity of your program. I see its value and understand the need for extra funding, but I have concerns about how it's being collected. I have a suggested solution that will help keep the integrity of your program. I would really like the opportunity to meet with you in person and discuss"

Instead you choose a public forum, which appears to more of a witch hunt than anything else.


Explain how you're trying to be helpful? (I don't really care because, based on your rants, your don't want to be helpful)

If you cared, you would notice underfunded programs that are trying to maintain a high level of success and are trying to adapt to an environment where the school budgets won't support what they need.

Perhaps one person somewhere did something questionable and now you think they're all corrupt and embezzling money? Really?

I'm sorry someone wronged you...

BTW - your rants really don't seem that organized to me; they're actually quite hard to follow (intellectually and logically) so I didn't bother reading them all. You just throw out shotgun like ideas with no real story to tell except that you think all band programs are corrupt.


Enjoy the rest of your Sunday


(this is my last response)

Shawn, I am so glad this is your last post, because you seem illogical, uniformed, irrational, and you don't really seem to be clear on what you are trying to accomplish.

The changes must be initiated at the highest level and enforced at the lowest level. This has been easier said than done. There have been many, many issues to address. If you don't have the intellectual capacity to understand this then maybe you are better off not displaying your problem here.

I am sure programs love maintaining a "high level of success" but they have to follow local, state, and Federal regulations and laws anyway. Sometimes you have to adjust what you "want" to what you are able to realistically do. This is public education, not a private club situation.

I don't know who all is corrupt and embezzling money but there are sure lots of really confused people who don't know how to read the directions, don't want to follow the directions, don't think the directions apply to them, have some really bad money management practices, etc. That includes administrators, teachers, and Boosters.

I miss Shawn already....

No more ***** Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I miss Shawn already....


As confused as many of you are, I am not surprised.

More on Westfield Tag Day.

Remember that the parents were presented with an FCPS permission form for this event? That makes it a school-sponsored event. As you can see from the RM-34, a Booster-sponsored event cannot use school forms. There are references to "co-sponsorship" in the RM-34 but nobody can produce a definition of that term. Probably because if you look at the criteria for sponsorship, the descriptions are mutually exclusive. Boosters can't use school forms. So, if school forms are used, it is school-sponsored.

Use of letterhead or staff to advertise or convey any information about the event is also prohibited with a Booster-sponsored event.

So, now we have the information the students passed out on Tag Day. While there isn't an FCPS logo on the information, the top of the form says "Westfield High School Music Department" and this is signed by the principal (Dr. Copeland) and three music teachers (in addition to the Guard instructor and the Co-Presidents of the Booster club). The Booster club is not part of the Westfield High School Music Department, the principal has signed this form, so this is basically FCPS letterhead and the action of a public official.

Remember that Dr. Copeland could not provide any proof that he or his predecessor approved this field trip that was offered on the field trip permission form that all students and their parents had to sign in order for the children to participate in this event? Yet, his signature is on this form, which makes this HIS field trip.

To top it off, the money is directed to go to a Booster club. Since when does a public official use school letterhead to raise money for a Booster club, and use a school-sponsored event to put money into a Booster bank account? Money associated with a school-sponsored event is school activity funds, which are required to be processed in internal accounts. Principals are not allowed to let school activity funds be given to a non-profit, even if the purpose is to benefit the school. R5810, Page 14 C.1. It has been this way for many, many years. Nothing new. It was also in the old R5810.

The school system is supposed to have all the records pertaining to this Tag Day in their internal accounts, so the school system is thus the custodian of all the records pertaining to this Tag Day, no matter who has them in their possession. So, bank and other records were obtained from the Booster club, avoiding another potential Writ. Lucky for them. Glad they finally figured that out. The records pertaining to exactly what the money was used for are also public record.

This is such a mess.
Attachments:

Actually, the Westfield form was signed by the Guitar instructor. Coffee had not kicked in yet.

So, this, was signed by FOUR FCPS teachers in addition to the principal.

Oh Westfield. Westfield, Westfield, Westfield.
The FOIA office is very adamant about several things-

1. The principal is unable to locate any sign of a 140 or 141 permission form allowing this Tag Day field trip.

2. The "Band and Chorus teachers did not submit a request for approval" of the activity, which is required of them. They are not supposed to up and hand out a 152 to everybody unless the principal has approved it. In writing. On a 140 or 141. I would think every teacher in America would understand that they have to have the permission of the principal to offer a field trip on a school system form. Obviously not.

3. They WERE able to produce a signed copy of a 152. So, the parents and the kids were told by the teachers that they signed up for a school system activity. That is what a 152 means.

4. There is "no record of any information collected on the private drivers" for this school-sponsored activity. This is mandatory. Records of insurance and valid drivers license are required. The school system is saying the Booster parents collected this information on Tag Day. The school system says the Booster parents then destroyed this information. That information, even if not on a school form, is still public record. It was produced as a part of the field trip. It recorded the drivers. Critical information that the school system is required to have. The FOIA office says that the teachers basically never even looked at the information. "They didn't have access." Why NOT? They were promoting a school-sponsored event when they sent out and collected the 152. People were driving their students on this school-sponsored event they were promoting.

So, according to what the FOIA office is saying, the Boosters destroyed critical public records without the permission of the school system. Swift. Destroying something that allowed a child to ride with another adult that quickly was a very, very reckless decision on their part.

I would bet Legal and Risk Management are just overjoyed about this. Nice job. All of you.

Let me refresh my memory.

"It's been done this way for years." Good Heavens.

"No one cares." (Until there is an incident and/or somebody is hurt.)

"You are 'effing stupid'." That's always a good one.

Hey Westfield Boosters-who told you to destroy the driver information, or did you just up and decide to destroy public records on your own? Great.

Here we go............

Seriously Barb? You are fucking out of control.

After a field trip, you think every teacher is going to keep all of the permission forms, driver permission, etc? Hell no, that stuff is for risk management before and during a trip, and are worthless afterwards, which is why they are destroyed.

Get a fucking hobby. Get a fucking life. Move on.

Out of fucking control Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Seriously Barb? You are fucking out of control.
>
> After a field trip, you think every teacher is
> going to keep all of the permission forms, driver
> permission, etc? Hell no, that stuff is for risk
> management before and during a trip, and are
> worthless afterwards, which is why they are
> destroyed.
>
> Get a fucking hobby. Get a fucking life. Move
> on.

That didn't take long.

As a driver, I would want copies of my license info to be destroyed after it is all over. Keep a list of names and whether everything was in order, but not information that can be handed over to wackos with a FOIA request.

***** Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So, according to what the FOIA office is saying,
> the Boosters destroyed critical public records
> without the permission of the school system.

This is absolutely not what the FOIA office said or is saying. An utter and complete fabrication on your part.

drdrd Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As a driver, I would want copies of my license
> info to be destroyed after it is all over. Keep a
> list of names and whether everything was in order,
> but not information that can be handed over to
> wackos with a FOIA request.


It is up to the school system to determine the records retention schedule for these types of documents. If they are FOIA'd, they redact personal information. It is up to the school system to retain or destroy these records, NOT a group of volunteers. Unless they themselves destroy them, there is no way to know that they were destroyed, and the proper documentation kept regarding that process.

You all did an incredible job with this. Really. Hard to believe, actually.

YFjLk Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ***** Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > So, according to what the FOIA office is
> saying,
> > the Boosters destroyed critical public records
> > without the permission of the school system.
>
> This is absolutely not what the FOIA office said
> or is saying. An utter and complete fabrication
> on your part.

The FOIA office said the teachers never even had access to the records. The Boosters basically up and destroyed them. Since when is that OK with the Library of Virginia?

The FOIA law has a presumption that all information is public, unless the public body proves otherwise. There are several exceptions to public disclosure that include but are not limited to:

Private information – “Private information” is exempt from disclosure under FOIA. FOIA defines “private information” as “unique identifiers, including a person’s social security number, driver’s license number, employee identification number, biometric identifiers, personal financial information, passwords or other access codes, medical records, home or personal telephone numbers, and personal e-mail addresses.” Under FOIA, “private information also includes home addresses and personal license plate numbers, except as otherwise provided by law or when compiled without possibility of attribution to any person.”

So yeah. Permission forms and driver's info cannot be FOIA'ed, cunt.

Note "Field Trip Approvals and Vouchers, and all supporting documentation". The principal signs the approval for a driver on a field trip. These 142's are certainly supporting documents.

Calendar year + 3.

So, it looks like FCPS was remiss in their record-keeping and not in compliance with the Virginia Public Records Act, in addition to not being in compliance with multiple FCPS regulations.

Add it to the stack...............!!!!!!!!!!!
Attachments:

I'm among the first to cringe at Barb's methods, but I'm fairly sure that she CAN foia those things - the info on them would just be redacted... so she'd be paying to receive a document with pretty much everything blacked out by the FOIA office. A great waste of time for both her and the employees who get to redact the info.

Every driver has to have one of these signed by the principal. The school system could not produce a single one. They said the Boosters destroyed all of the records pertaining to the drivers. It is very clear in the records manual that these are to be kept for the calendar year + 3. They can be scanned, with the paper copies destroyed after that.

The school system is also required to have a record of what records are destroyed, which attests to whether they did their job properly.

I would say that a group of volunteers trashing a stack of approval forms, forms that were never shown to an employee, doesn't cut it.
Attachments:

They did manage to cough up an FS-152. Good for them.
Attachments:

Before we crucify volunteers and teachers for their records-keeping practices, I'd like to say that it would be really nice if the school system, licensure programs, and/or college courses actually informed those folks of this stuff - especially the document on records retention. Guess how many teachers even know that document exists? Close to zero. Is it everyone's responsibility to know these things? Sure.. but you don't know what you don't know... and the job has too many other moving parts to focus on for these people to seek it out on their own.

Your efforts should be focused on the lack of education on the topic from teacher prep programs and lack of info on this from central, rather than trashing the teachers and volunteers. You assume teachers have been taught this stuff and are dropping the ball. The reality is teachers are not told the ins and outs of foia law or records retention. They get their jobs and focus their energy on ...teaching kids.

BTW, I'm not referring to any of the 'going on the unapproved field trip' stuff...that's a different thing. I'm just simply talking about the knowledge of how long to keep records, obligations under foia, every little regulation and notice under the sun, etc.

3nYPG Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm among the first to cringe at Barb's methods,
> but I'm fairly sure that she CAN foia those things
> - the info on them would just be redacted... so
> she'd be paying to receive a document with pretty
> much everything blacked out by the FOIA office. A
> great waste of time for both her and the employees
> who get to redact the info.


You can most certainly FOIA the 142's. The details would be redacted. The details would be available to proper authorities in the event of an incident.

The principal had to sign the 142's. They should be kept in the front office with the other trip documents. These transactions are the property of the school system, with the principal and above being ultimately responsible for proper records retention. It shouldn't be the responsibility of the teacher to maintain these important records. That is why they have a front office. And it certainly isn't the responsibility of volunteers. Their job is to hand everything to the school that they have. They have been told that. Numerous times. Many of them signed an agreement saying they understood that. It's just common sense.

God only knows what people filled out who drove on this field trip. That is still public record. Anything associated with the activity is public record. The parents were presented with a school permission form.

This is gross negligence.

http://www.fcps.edu/it/forms/rmm.pdf

My favorite Barbara Brown of Oakton story is about the time she got hauled off by campus police after verbally abusing one of her kid's professors his freshman year for giving him a zero on an exam he never showed up to take!

>>>>>>>..the principal and above being ultimately responsible for proper records retention. It shouldn't be the responsibility of the teacher to maintain these important records. That is why they have a front office. And it certainly isn't the responsibility of volunteers. Their job is to hand everything to the school that they have




This underscores my point. And now I'm referring to your larger crusade as a whole... you've gone to great lengths to name many teachers and music directors as negligent and/or potentially criminal... in reality, almost NONE of these things are taught or tested when teachers are getting their licensure, and once they get their jobs, they remain in the dark until something has already gone wrong unbeknownst to them. The teachers and helpers should not be the target of your witch hunt. They don't know what they haven't been taught.

This of course, doesn't excuse them from more obvious missteps. But teachers have this horrible misconception that they can focus on instruction and learning for much of their time at work. The focus needs to be more on licensure programs and how info gets disseminated from central.

I don't think sf 142z could be considered as supporting documemtation for vouchers retained by rhe co.pt roller to validate proper expenditure of appropriated fundz. But that's just me.

Dear "out of fucking control"- Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Note "Field Trip Approvals and Vouchers, and all
> supporting documentation". The principal signs the
> approval for a driver on a field trip. These 142's
> are certainly supporting documents.
>
> Calendar year + 3.
>
> So, it looks like FCPS was remiss in their
> record-keeping and not in compliance with the
> Virginia Public Records Act, in addition to not
> being in compliance with multiple FCPS
> regulations.
>
> Add it to the stack...............!!!!!!!!!!!

The directions say all "Field Trip approvals and supporting documentation". The Comptroller is responsible for proper business procedures. Risk Management is part of their department. This is Risk Management.

Barbara Brown of Oakton served on the committee I chaired for the Oakton band boosters. Back then she mostly just complained a lot and often didn't show up for things she volunteered for. She always seemed a bit unbalanced, but I didn't think any of us saw coming the spectacle that she would become.

YFjLk Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ***** Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > So, according to what the FOIA office is
> saying,
> > the Boosters destroyed critical public records
> > without the permission of the school system.
>
> This is absolutely not what the FOIA office said
> or is saying. An utter and complete fabrication
> on your part.



So who gave the Boosters permission to destroy the forms? Any competent administrator should know the records retention schedule for field trips. They do tons of them. These are not rare and obscure transactions.

ddxGp Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The directions say all "Field Trip approvals and
> supporting documentation". The Comptroller is
> responsible for proper business procedures. Risk
> Management is part of their department. This is
> Risk Management.
The block is titled FIELD TRIP APPROVALS AND VOUCHERS I believe. Supporting documentation is subordinate. So no the sf 142's would not be required under this block. Unless the school reimbursed parents with appropriated funds. That would he neat.

Another Barbara Brown of Oakton gem: a while back she got booked to talk about her FOIA exploits on a radio program that broadcasts in the central part of the state. When she realized she had driven that distance and the listenership only averaged 130 listeners during regular broadcasts, she flipped her shit and demanded the host use his connections to get her on air with Fox News. She ended up having to settle for the predicted 130 listeners plus those who received the link from her to listen online and didn't delete it as spam.

Is there some rule about an OP using so many different names and carrying on such a public rampage against volunteers? The OP is out of control.

Learn to read.policy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ddxGp Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The directions say all "Field Trip approvals
> and
> > supporting documentation". The Comptroller is
> > responsible for proper business procedures.
> Risk
> > Management is part of their department. This is
> > Risk Management.
> The block is titled FIELD TRIP APPROVALS AND
> VOUCHERS I believe. Supporting documentation is
> subordinate. So no the sf 142's would not be
> required under this block. Unless the school
> reimbursed parents with appropriated funds. That
> would he neat.


Appropriated funds has nothing to do with it. The funds associated with optional field trips like this are still public funds. Non-appropriated public funds. And the records requirements don't just apply to money records. They also apply to procedures, etc. Look at the manual.

The 142's are approval forms for drivers on field trips. "Field Trip Approvals and supporting documents." Why would you not want to be able to prove that you made proper arrangements for drivers on a field trip? The liability with this is tremendous. You would also want to keep bus company documents, travel agency documents, student payment spreadsheets, etc. All that supports the income and expenses of the trips. "All supporting documents."

U4und Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Is there some rule about an OP using so many
> different names and carrying on such a public
> rampage against volunteers? The OP is out of
> control.


People can post using whatever name they want. Anybody can.
If volunteers are stupid enough to throw out public records and all the other crazy things they do (like create fraudulent spreadsheets for school trips) it is their own damn fault.