Cotton Mather was an idiot that sent our country in the opposite direction, as all religious power hungry people do. I suppose you look up to him, though.

Your ignorance is truly stupefying. The "our country" bit is further proof. What country do you think this was in the 17th century? Who won the presidential election of 1620, you ignoramus.

Professor Pangloss Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Let's be frank, Elliot. Let's suppose you are
> right for a second - that modern science leads to
> a nihilistic "soul crushing" worldview.
>
> Are you suggesting that we ignore reality in favor
> of a worldview that's more rosy? That we chuck
> truth and reason in favor of that which makes us
> feel better?
-------------------------------------------------------

1) "Ignore reality" begs the question!

2) Christianity is far from a "rosy worldview." On the contrary, it looks ahead, with tears, to "sinners in the hands of an angry God."

3) Nihilism can be 'rosy' ... because there is only sporadic 'justice' and the punishment seldom fits the crime. Dateline and 20/20 have made an industry of such unsolved cases (Jon Benet Ramsey, for example).

4) The Christian can leave ultimate justice to God, forgiving because he has been forgiven. Paul wrote: "Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: 'It is mine to avenge; I will repay,' says the Lord." (Romans 12).

5) If I thought that Christianity were not "true and reasonable" I would be the first to rejoin Bill Maher in aggressive Agnosticism (Atheism being dogmatic).

Eliot Ness Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Professor Pangloss Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Let's be frank, Elliot. Let's suppose you are
> > right for a second - that modern science leads
> to
> > a nihilistic "soul crushing" worldview.
> >
> > Are you suggesting that we ignore reality in
> favor
> > of a worldview that's more rosy? That we chuck
> > truth and reason in favor of that which makes
> us
> > feel better?
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> 1) "Ignore reality" begs the question!

It's one of the premises to my point.


> 2) Christianity is far from a "rosy worldview." On
> the contrary, it looks ahead, with tears, to
> "sinners in the hands of an angry God."

You can say what you like, however I'd think that an eternity in 'heaven' strongly disagrees with you.


> 3) Nihilism can be 'rosy' ... because there is
> only sporadic 'justice' and the punishment seldom
> fits the crime. Dateline and 20/20 have made an
> industry of such unsolved cases (Jon Benet Ramsey,
> for example).

This seems beside the point. I also don't see the relevance of pointing to Jon Benet Ramsey. Is it your presumption that the parents did it and that this was obvious?

> 4) The Christian can leave ultimate justice to
> God, forgiving because he has been forgiven. Paul
> wrote: "Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave
> room for God's wrath, for it is written: 'It is
> mine to avenge; I will repay,' says the Lord."
> (Romans 12).

I'm sorry, what's the relevance to what I wrote?


> 5) If I thought that Christianity were not "true
> and reasonable" I would be the first to rejoin
> Bill Maher in aggressive Agnosticism (Atheism
> being dogmatic).


This remains to be seen.

Numbers Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bill Maher is angry and aggressive? If anyone is
> angry and aggressive, it's you and Cotton "picker"
> Mather.
------------------------------------------------

1) I have sought to be neither angry nor aggressive nor dismissive of others' views, even where we completely disagree.

2) The Apostle Paul is the role model here. He wrote to the Romans: "I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, the people of Israel."

3) It always hurts to talk about these issues, which is why most of us ignore them and live in 'romantic' fantasies. E.g.,

Our most-prolific fictional TV is homicide-obsessed ... Law & Order, CSI ... crimes are solved and justice is dispensed, like LensCrafters, in about an hour.

The brilliantly written Desperate Housewives opens with a Garden-of-Eden scene. Murder is trivialized. The always-condescending narrator is the spirit of a suicide housewife. Implicitly and sometimes explicitly, the show tells us every week what we all long to hear ... that personality continues and everything is OK for everybody after death, be it natural or suicide or murder.

Eliot Ness has very pretty posts. This place is always so drab.

Rectumite Wrote:
----------------------------------------------------------------
> I think Elliot Ness must have found Lon Solomon's stash!
>
> If Solomon is doing it for God's sake alone, why take $800,000
> out of the baskets and live in a $2 million dollar house?
--------------------------------------------------------

1) Apparently McLean Bible Church does not publish the salaries of its 250 employees ... does anyone know where the alleged salary $800k figure originated?

2) Fairfax County tax records show that the Solomon family's house cost $475k in 1999 (apx. $590k in today's dollars) and is now assessed at $1.15 million.

Q1: Who controls and audits MBC's finances ... and has anybody ever accused MBC of mismanaging money?
Q2: What should Lon Solomon's salary be?
Q3: How much should Solomon's house be worth, and how often should he downsize his housing in order to undercut our recent outrageous real estate inflation?
Q4: How many hours-per-week has Solomon worked since 1980 when he began at McLean Bible Church? What has his average hourly wage been over the past 30 years?

Eliot Ness Wrote:
> 2) Fairfax County tax records show that the
> Solomon family's house cost $475k in 1999 (apx.
> $590k in today's dollars) and is now assessed at
> $1.15 million.

Is that this month? Next month it'll be $1 million. The month after that, it'll be $950k....By Summer if this economic environment keeps up, it'll be $500k...

MrMephisto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Eliot Ness has very pretty posts. This place is
> always so drab.

Thank you sir ... I'll make them prettier still as I determine what HTML syntax the Wikimedia system supports on this forum.

MrMephisto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
"Faith is a good and healthy thing. Religion is a bullshit crutch."
Ness replies:
I agree, if you are referring to hypocritical, narcissistic, womanizing, greedy Elmer Gantry 'religion' ...
as opposed to honest, intelligent, informed 'faith' in Jesus as the Messiah of historic Reformation Christianity.

Elliot... while you are at it, learn how to close your tags.



That's OK.... I did it for you.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 01/21/2009 12:38PM by SRE.

SRE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Elliot... while you are at it, learn how to close
> your tags.

The forum cautiously encapsulates each of our posts within a class="PhorumReadBodyText" DIV ...

Eliot Ness Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MrMephisto Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> "Faith is a good and healthy thing. Religion is
> a bullshit crutch."
> Ness replies:
> I agree, if you are referring to hypocritical,
> narcissistic, womanizing, greedy Elmer Gantry
> 'religion' ...
> as opposed to honest, intelligent, informed
> 'faith' in Jesus as the Messiah of historic
> Reformation Christianity.



nah...

Faith is a dumb and unhealthy thing - especially when proof of other explanations is freely available

Religion is worse

Science has done away with the need or justification for either

Time to condemn them both into the trashcan of history along with slavery and running around in mammoth skins and just move on...

I think we'll know in 20 years where we're going with religion. If the number of religious people hasn't been cut at least in half by then, we're all in big trouble. That's assuming some religious nut hasn't blown us all to Kingdom Cum by then.

A lot has been made during the inauguration about how far we've come with civil rights since the 50's and 60's. In basically 40-50 years, we've all but done away with racism and segregation (aside from a few idiots here and there). So the next logical step in the right direction is putting religion behind us and getting on with life as we know it. That includes doing away with voodoo, witchcraft, Satan worship and all this other nonsense that many people still believe in. Sure, it's cool in the movies and it's still fun to imagine and fantasize about, but it bothers me that it's still a big part of politics, which it has absolutely no place in.

I was glad to hear Obama recognize "non-believers" in his speech yesterday, but there was still WAY too much preaching, praising, hands on bibles and then today (Wednesday), a damn church service.
Black folks finally got their president, I hope Americans have the courage some day to elect a secular or "non-believer" as well.

Nutters, Mephisto, & friends ...
I mentioned our animated correspondence to Dr. Caroline Crocker today.

If you're not afraid of being 'Expelled,' she refers you to these books which academia seems to want
to see burned rather than read. (Especially Icons of Evolution and The Edge of Evolution.)
BTW, she has published a brief response to Expelled Exposed and is writing a book about her adventures.

Eliot Ness Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nutters, Mephisto, & friends ... I mentioned our
> animated correspondence to Dr. Caroline Crocker
> today.
> If you're not afraid of being 'Expelled,' she
> refers you to these books which academia seems to
> want to see burned rather than read. (Especially
> Icons of Evolution and The Edge of Evolution.)BTW,
> she has published a brief response to Expelled
> Exposed and is writing a book about her
> adventures.

I've read Icons and Behe's first book - I am far from impressed by that pseudoscience. It relies on an appeal to ignorance mainly. I've also seen bits of Expelled and it strains credulity. ID is no more credible then when Pailey argued for it in the 1800's. The modern proponents have failed to construct a valid scientific theory. ID is no more legitimate then afrocentricism, holocaust denial, flat-earthism, phlogistan, and the rest. It should be treated as those ideas are.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/22/2009 08:57AM by Professor Pangloss.

Numbers Wrote:
>
> I was glad to hear Obama recognize "non-believers"
> in his speech yesterday, but there was still WAY
> too much preaching, praising, hands on bibles and
> then today (Wednesday), a damn church service.
> Black folks finally got their president, I hope
> Americans have the courage some day to elect a
> secular or "non-believer" as well.

I think there has been more then one closet non-believers in the Oval Office.

I just read Dr. Crocker's response. In particular I find it odd that she refers readers to popular books that have not gone through peer review, instead of scientific article which have. It strikes me as obvious that the ID proponents wish to be seperated from creationists - even though their beginnings stem from creationists (and Philip Johnson and his 'wedge'). Instead of waging a scientific war of ideas, ID proponents (modern creationists) are running a media campaign.

Where are their scientific theories?
Where are their empirical tests?
Where are their peer reviewed journal articles?

Seriously, intelligent design doesn't only seek to destroy science (ie, it wishes to legitimize the appeal to ignorance as empirical evidence), it is also destroying religion. So we are now to believe that god created parasites - created wasps that lay their larva into catapillers, which then grow and eat the *still living* catapiller from the inside out.

Yes, that's brilliant design. Almost as brilliant as designing the Mexican tetra with eyes.

Keep the poor reasoning outside of science. Not only is intelligent design simply a god of the gaps, it doesn't explain anything. Why are our bodies 'designed' with our respiratory systems and our digestive systems close to one another? Is it because god likes to watch us choke?

Eliot Ness Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nutters, Mephisto, & friends ... I mentioned our
> animated correspondence to Dr. Caroline Crocker
> today.
> If you're not afraid of being 'Expelled,' she
> refers you to these books which academia seems to
> want to see burned rather than read. (Especially
> Icons of Evolution and The Edge of Evolution.)BTW,
> she has published a brief response to Expelled
> Exposed and is writing a book about her
> adventures.

I don't follow Christianity because of the idea that it's supposed to be perfect, faultless, and the one true religion. However, all it takes is one tiny, little, insignificant contradiction to show that everything about the faith must be questioned. If one thing is not perfect and true, then one must question everything.

For example... I posted this in another thread, but it's relevant.

-------
For Jesus to be the messiah predicted in the Old Testament, he had to fulfill ALL of the Old Testament prophecies. One of them specifically states that he had to be a descendant of King David.

Bible lineage is traced through the man's side of the family, and Jacob is listed as a descendant of King David. However, God got Mary pregnant, not Jacob, which means that Jesus didn't fulfill all of the prophecies and thus cannot be the messiah. If Jacob boned Mary, then it wasn't a virgin birth, which means that Jesus didn't fulfill all of the prophecies and thus cannot be the messiah.
------

The church proper was NOT started by Jesus. It was started by Paul, who was known as Saul, a high-ranking pharisee and active persecuter of christians. He saw that no matter how hard he cracked down on them, the faith was still spreading. So he goes out into the middle of the desert all alone and has a vision of Jesus, comes back, and formalizes this new religion.

Need more evidence of how badly man has fucked this religion up? Do an image search for Jesus, and you'll find a lot of pictures of a handsome, bearded white man, instead of the dark-skinned, ugly jew that he actually was. But who would want to follow that? So we change a couple details here and there to make it "work" better, and ta da! we go from Jesus's message of love and peace to Ted Haggard sucking dick for meth.

I hope when you go to church, your wife covers her head and does not say a word, because the bible was very specific about that. Also, since homosexuality is an abomination as mentioned in Leviticus, and Jesus came to "fulfill the law, not abolish it," that means you also can't eat crab, lobster, or calamari, and if you touch your wife when she's bleeding from her vagina, you need to leave your community for ten days.

Oh, and if your daughter gets brutally raped but does not cry out for help, we stone your daughter.

Thanks, but I just don't think Christianity is for me.

Oh, and if your daughter gets brutally raped but does not cry out for help, we stone your daughter.

You are being disingenuous. This is in line with fundamentalist Islam, not Christianity, fundamentalist or otherwise. The fact that you need to either reach back to the Roman era for "evidence" or lie outright to support your position merely shows that your position is based on nothing but bias and hatred.

Cotton Mather Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oh, and if your daughter gets brutally raped but
> does not cry out for help, we stone your daughter.
>
>
> You are being disingenuous. This is in line with
> fundamentalist Islam, not Christianity,
> fundamentalist or otherwise. The fact that you
> need to either reach back to the Roman era for
> "evidence" or lie outright to support your
> position merely shows that your position is based
> on nothing but bias and hatred.

Uh, oh! Someone needs to read their Bible!

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2022:23-24;&version=31;

Which happens to be the Old Testament, AKA The Talmud. So why not attack the Jews as well? They don't adhere to that archaic admonition either.

Cotton Mather Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Which happens to be the Old Testament, AKA The
> Talmud. So why not attack the Jews as well? They
> don't adhere to that archaic admonition either.


Why do you suppose it's in the Bible, Cotton? Do you think that, at one time, God permitted it and now he's against it? Do you think it's just cultural baggage and it shouldn't be read as a law?

Cotton Mather Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Which happens to be the Old Testament, AKA The
> Talmud. So why not attack the Jews as well? They
> don't adhere to that archaic admonition either.

Uh, oh! Someone needs to read their Bible!

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=5&verse=17&version=31&context=verse

By your logic, we aren't bound by the Ten Commandments anymore, and homosexuality is not an abomination. Unless you're openly admitting that it's completely acceptable to pick and choose which parts of the Bible are "real".

Professor Pangloss Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cotton Mather Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Which happens to be the Old Testament, AKA The
> > Talmud. So why not attack the Jews as well?
> They
> > don't adhere to that archaic admonition either.
>
>
> Why do you suppose it's in the Bible, Cotton? Do
> you think that, at one time, God permitted it and
> now he's against it? Do you think it's just
> cultural baggage and it shouldn't be read as a
> law?

And what else has God changed his mind about?

"He was for it, before he was against it", lol.

MrMephisto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For Jesus to be the messiah predicted in the Old Testament, he had to fulfill ALL of the Old Testament prophecies. One of them specifically states that he had to be a descendant of King David.
>
> Bible lineage is traced through the man's side of the family, and Jacob [Joseph] is listed as a descendant of King David. However, God got Mary pregnant, not Jacob [Joseph], which means that Jesus didn't fulfill all of the prophecies and thus cannot be the messiah.

Ness replies:color=black> with notes from Chuck Missler, who points out that Jesus was indeed a legal descendant of David by virtue of the specific exception in the Torah, which was associated with daughters of Zelophehad.

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the Throne of David and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. (Isaiah 9:6-7)

1) Mary was of the line of David, but through Nathan (the second surviving son of Bathsheba), not Solomon. 2) Applying the provisions of the Zelophehad exception, Heli, the father of Mary, properly adopted Joseph as his son-in-law. 3) The significance of the Davidic Covenant is one of the most impacting aspects surrounding the Christmas season. 4) The ultimate destiny of Jesus to rule on the Throne of David was confirmed by the Angel Gabriel in his famed announcement to Mary. 5) However, David’s throne didn’t exist in Jesus’ day. In fact, the gift of gold by the Magi made possible their flight to Egypt to evade the impending threat from Herod’s throne until that danger had elapsed. The subsequent years, raising the child in Nazareth (under the stigma of ostensible illegitimacy), were certainly more difficult that we can imagine.

Missler, just FYI, is a very rational Naval Academy grad and former Ph.D. 'rocket scientist' (yup, missiles) who will gutsily go right into a science fiction conference and challenge the UFO-obsessed audience to consider that if Christianity is true, the Bible is a prophecy-authenticated 'extraterrestrial' communication whose Christian cosmology therefore merits their inspection.

MrMephisto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> By your logic, we aren't bound by the Ten Commandments anymore, and homosexuality is not an abomination. Unless you're openly admitting that it's completely acceptable to pick and choose which parts of the Bible are "real".

Homosexuality is not specifically mentioned in the Ten Commandments. However, the Apostle Paul, in the blistering anthropology of Romans 1, reaffirms that homosexuality is abnormal and sinful, despite that fact that many of us are born that way ... just as we are some born alcoholics, etc. (Christianity asserts that in addition to "Intelligent Design" there was a "Curse" ... which could well be called a "Death Sentence Re-design" of fallen and distorted mankind.)

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

I repeat my assertion that in an uncreated, chance Darwinian cosmology there is never a basis for "ought" rather than "is." You may not like bestiality, or child rape, or murder ... but you have no 'cosmological' basis for legislating against them, whereas Christianity does.

Eliot Ness Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MrMephisto Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > For Jesus to be the messiah predicted in the Old
> Testament, he had to fulfill ALL of the Old
> Testament prophecies. One of them specifically
> states that he had to be a descendant of King
> David.
> >
> > Bible lineage is traced through the man's side
> of the family, and Jacob is listed as a
> descendant of King David. However, God got Mary
> pregnant, not Jacob , which means that Jesus
> didn't fulfill all of the prophecies and thus
> cannot be the messiah.
>
> Ness replies: with notes from Chuck Missler, who
> points out that Jesus was indeed a legal
> descendant of David by virtue of the specific
> exception in the Torah, which was associated with
> daughters of Zelophehad.
>
> For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is
> given: and the government shall be upon his
> shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful,
> Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father,
> The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his
> government and peace there shall be no end, upon
> the Throne of David and upon his kingdom, to order
> it, and to establish it with judgment and with
> justice from henceforth even for ever. (Isaiah
> 9:6-7)
> 1) Mary was of the line of David, but through
> Nathan (the second surviving son of Bathsheba),
> not Solomon.
>
> 2) Applying the provisions of the Zelophehad
> exception, Heli, the father of Mary, properly
> adopted Joseph as his son-in-law.
>
> 3) The significance of the Davidic Covenant is one
> of the most impacting aspects surrounding the
> Christmas season.
> 4) The ultimate destiny of Jesus to rule on the
> Throne of David was confirmed by the Angel Gabriel
> in his famed announcement to Mary.
> 5) However, David’s throne didn’t exist in Jesus’
> day. In fact, the gift of gold by the Magi made
> possible their flight to Egypt to evade the
> impending threat from Herod’s throne until that
> danger had elapsed. The subsequent years, raising
> the child in Nazareth (under the stigma of
> ostensible illegitimacy), were certainly more
> difficult that we can imagine.
> Missler, just FYI, is a very rational Naval
> Academy grad and former Ph.D. 'rocket scientist'
> (yup, missiles) who will gutsily go right into a
> science fiction conference and challenge the
> UFO-obsessed audience to consider that if
> Christianity is true, the Bible is a
> prophecy-authenticated 'extraterrestrial'
> communication whose Christian cosmology therefore
> merits their inspection.


You got one little problem there...The bible specifically states that Joseph was the son of Heli:

"Luke 23Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli"

So, while what you are saying might be true (no actual evidence in favor of it - just speculation), the *bible itself* says something different.

Unless you are referring to a different verse?

Eliot Ness Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I repeat my assertion that in an uncreated, chance
> Darwinian cosmology there is never a basis for
> "ought" rather than "is." You may not like
> bestiality, or child rape, or murder ... but you
> have no 'cosmological' basis for legislating
> against them, whereas Christianity does.


I will repeat that you haven't demonstrated this assertion and that Christianity falls on exactly the same sword.

Further, even supposing what you say is true, so what? It doesn't mean that Christianity *is* true, just that we would have no basis for morality.

In other words, you need more to stand on here.

Eliot Ness Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> stuff...

Your boy Missler cites 2 Samuel 5:14 as a reference to Mary being the son of Nathan, second child of Bathsheba.

David didn't meet Bathsheba until 2 Samuel 11.

Eliot Ness Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> More stuff...

You're absolutely right; Paul specifically mentions homosexuality in the New Testament.

However, Paul is not the Son of God; the actual Son of God never said anything about homosexuality. Paul is a turncoat pharisee that decided to jump on board with the winning team.

If you're following Paul's authority, I will assume that women in your church cover their heads and do not say a word.

Professor Pangloss Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You got one little problem there...The bible
> specifically states that Joseph was the son of
> Heli:
>
> "Luke 23Now Jesus himself was about thirty years
> old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so
> it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli"
>
> So, while what you are saying might be true (no
> actual evidence in favor of it - just
> speculation), the *bible itself* says something
> different.
>
> Unless you are referring to a different verse?

When I said Jacob in an earlier post, I meant Joseph. Whoops.

Anyway, Matthew 1:16 states that Joseph's father is Jacob. Luke 3:23 says that it's Heli. I say it's irrelevant, because Joseph was not Jesus's father, and the fact that the Bible states that he is is inherently false.

I've heard the argument that Luke actually refers to Mary, and this is strained and unsupported. It smacks of wishful thinking. The more reasonable explanation is that Luke didn't know, but had to retrofit Jesus to the Davidic lineage. He was unaware of the other lineage.

By your logic, we aren't bound by the Ten Commandments anymore, and homosexuality is not an abomination. Unless you're openly admitting that it's completely acceptable to pick and choose which parts of the Bible are "real".


All well and good but then why don't you express any contempt for the other two parts of the Abrahamic trio, Judaism and Islam? You save all your bile for Christianity. The irony of all this is that I myself am not particularly religious. What I do loathe though are hypocritical attacks on people of faith,as long as those people are Christians, by those who are forever running around telling everyone how "tolerant" they are. Maybe you should just learn to live and let live. Or, to use the current vernacular, celebrate diversity.

Professor Pangloss Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've read Icons and Behe's first book ...
> The modern proponents [of Intelligent Design] have failed to construct a valid scientific theory.

1) Glad to know that somebody has actually read about ID before dismissing the concept.
2) Without a 'time machine,' how do you create a 'valid scientific theory' about the past ... other than by examining the present?
3) Christians do not necessarily expect to explain everything in physics or biochemistry ... indeed, God might keep some things a mystery even after the Resurrection.
4) One of the 'damnations' of any Naturalistic Man is that he will die -- be annihilated -- without ever knowing the 'Truth' that he believes is "Out There" ... even if his successors find that 'Truth' before the projected heat death of the cosmos.
5) To paraphrase Francis Schaeffer:

"If a Darwinian man was consistent with his presuppositions, he would be an atheist in religion, an anarchist in politics, an irrationalist in philosophy (including a complete uncertainty concerning 'natural laws'), and completely a-moral in the widest sense."

Professor Pangloss Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've heard the argument that Luke actually refers
> to Mary, and this is strained and unsupported. It
> smacks of wishful thinking. The more reasonable
> explanation is that Luke didn't know, but had to
> retrofit Jesus to the Davidic lineage. He was
> unaware of the other lineage.

My arguments are based around two universal Christian beliefs:

1. The word of God is infallable.
2. The Bible is the word of God.

If you have to be a biblical scholar to understand and explain the plainly-written contradictions in the Bible, doesn't that give these scholars the opportunity to twist the word of God to meet their own goals and interpretations?

Oh. Wait.

Eliot Ness Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Professor Pangloss Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I've read Icons and Behe's first book ...
> > The modern proponents have failed to construct
> a valid scientific theory.
>
> 1) Glad to know that somebody has actually read
> about ID before dismissing the concept.
> 2) Without a 'time machine,' how do you create a
> 'valid scientific theory' about the past ... other
> than by examining the present?

First it has to be an actual explanation. Theories in science are broad explanations of laws, facts, and phenomenon. We do not need time machines in order to test theories (if we did, foriensic science would be moot).

> 3) Christians do not necessarily expect to explain
> everything in physics or biochemistry ... indeed,
> God might keep some things a mystery even after
> the Resurrection.

That could be true - but I see it as another problem with Christianity. In any event, my main contention was that ID doesn't explain anything either. Hence it's more religious then scientific.

> 4) One of the 'damnations' of any Naturalistic Man
> is that he will die -- be annihilated -- without
> ever knowing the 'Truth' that he believes is "Out
> There" ... even if his successors find that
> 'Truth' before the projected heat death of the
> cosmos.

That's your subjective opinion. As I've said, I agree with Nietzsche that death is the only thing that *can* actually give this life value.

Both are actually irrelevant to the truth though, so I fail to see why you continually bring this up.

> 5) To paraphrase Francis Schaeffer:
> "If a Darwinian man was consistent with his
> presuppositions, he would be an atheist in
> religion, an anarchist in politics, an
> irrationalist in philosophy (including a complete
> uncertainty concerning 'natural laws'), and
> completely a-moral in the widest sense."


Good for Schaeffer. What this doesn't mean is:

1. That it's actually true (he doesn't back it up logically). This is only Schaeffer's opinion.
2. That even if it were true, that atheism is not true.

In essense, it's a red herring to distract from the fact that Christianity doesn't have any better answers or any reason to compell reasoned belief.

MrMephisto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Anyway, Matthew 1:16 states that Joseph's father is Jacob. Luke 3:23 says that it's Heli.
I say it's irrelevant, because Joseph was not Jesus's father, and the fact that the Bible states that he is, is inherently false.
1) Why do you assert that Joseph was not Jesus' biological father? (Unless perhaps you accept the Scriptures' contention that the Holy Spirit was?!)
2) Jacob biologically, Heli by adoption ... simply different perspectives.
3) If there is no God, all of the Biblical genealogy is irrelevant anyhow, signifying nothing ... because the covenants with 'God' would be nothing but the grand delusions of fiction writers.

Cotton Mather Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> By your logic, we aren't bound by the Ten
> Commandments anymore, and homosexuality is not an
> abomination. Unless you're openly admitting that
> it's completely acceptable to pick and choose
> which parts of the Bible are "real".
>
>
> All well and good but then why don't you express
> any contempt for the other two parts of the
> Abrahamic trio, Judaism and Islam? You save all
> your bile for Christianity. The irony of all this
> is that I myself am not particularly religious.
> What I do loathe though are hypocritical attacks
> on people of faith,as long as those people are
> Christians, by those who are forever running
> around telling everyone how "tolerant" they are.
> Maybe you should just learn to live and let live.
> Or, to use the current vernacular, celebrate
> diversity.

Start a thread about how the McLean Synagogue sucks, or the McLean Mosque sucks, and I'll happily weigh in when I read something that makes me call bullshit.

I was also a fanatical Christian for the first 20 years of my life, and my brother is now a minister at the Non-Denominational Bible Church that I attended for 6 years. It's not easy to critically examine the things you believe in and abandon them when you find them inadequate.

If I was calling Christians stupid or saying that everything they believe is a joke, then it would accurately be called "bile." Having a differing opinion and backing that opinion up with facts (or at the very least, persuasive arguments) is called "debating."

If I was calling Christians stupid or saying that everything they believe is a joke, then it would accurately be called "bile." Having a differing opinion and backing that opinion up with facts (or at the very least, persuasive arguments) is called "debating."

Your allegation that mainstream Christians actually believe in stoning rape victims to death is a bilious attack. There is no debate in an absurd allegation such as that.

MrMephisto - I believe Cotton might be mistaking you for Numbers, as he has had some difficulty (not without reason!) with the quotes on this board.

My bad, I was mistaken.

Eliot Ness Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 1) Why do you assert that Joseph was not Jesus'
> biological father? (Unless perhaps you accept the
> Scriptures' contention that the Holy Spirit
> was?!)

I thought that was the point of the whole "Jesus is the Son of God, born unto this world by the virgin Mary. Putting aside the questions of lineage, the Bible is very specific about the virgin birth. So Joseph couldn't have boned Mary if Jesus was God in the flesh.

> 2) Jacob biologically, Heli by adoption ... simply
> different perspectives.

It doesn't say anything about adoption or biology, but that's sort of irrelevant, anyway. I don't think God would have put this entire plan into motion just to eke by on a legal technicality.

> 3) If there is no God, all of the Biblical
> genealogy is irrelevant anyhow, signifying nothing
> ... because the covenants with 'God' would be
> nothing but the grand delusions of fiction
> writers.

I'm not saying there is no God. It's good to believe in something; faith can get you through the hard times, make the good times seem sweeter, and be a consistent thing to hold on to in a very unstable world. If you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and you're going to heaven when you die, good for you. I'm not trying to convince you otherwise. Faith is belief in something even if you don't have the evidence to prove it.

Religion is rarely more than men deceiving men in order to control or exploit them, saying, "here is our evidence, now have faith in us and our words." That's crap.

Cotton Mather Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Your allegation that mainstream Christians
> actually believe in stoning rape victims to death
> is a bilious attack. There is no debate in an
> absurd allegation such as that.

Uh, oh! Someone needs to read the Bible...

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2022:23-24;&version=31

... and the rest of my posts.

"Also, since homosexuality is an abomination as mentioned in Leviticus, and Jesus came to 'fulfill the law, not abolish it,' that means you also can't eat crab, lobster, or calamari, and if you touch your wife when she's bleeding from her vagina, you need to leave your community for ten seven days.

Oh, and if your daughter gets brutally raped but does not cry out for help, we stone your daughter (as mentioned in http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2022:23-24;&version=31)."

If the Old Testament is the Talmud and the Talmud is only for Jews, then why do we have the Old Testament in the Bible, and why does our supposedly Christian nation have the Ten Commandments in court houses?

Unless, of course, again, you'd like to state that it's OK to pick and choose which parts of the Bible you follow.

I could swear that the bible also mentions that if a woman is raped that she would have to marry the rapist.

This was the mentality of the time, that women were property and that a 'spoiled' woman was damaged goods.

Professor Pangloss Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I could swear that the bible also mentions that if
> a woman is raped that she would have to marry the
> rapist.
>
> This was the mentality of the time, that women
> were property and that a 'spoiled' woman was
> damaged goods.

Yup. That's Deuteronomy 22:28. If you rape a virgin who's not engaged to be married, you gotta pay her dad 50 sheckles and marry her, and you can never divorce her.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/22/2009 02:35PM by MrMephisto.

Unless, of course, again, you'd like to state that it's OK to pick and choose which parts of the Bible you follow.

You are so full of hatred for Christianity that you have no objectivity. You know full well that Christians profess to believe in the words and teachings of Jesus Christ. You cite ancient Jewish law to smugly "prove" some point known only to yourself, about Christianity. Ok, so the religion is not for you. But you have no right to tell people whose lives it has changed and to whom it gives comfort to that they are deluded, especially when all you can come up with are archaic and irrelevant proscriptions.

I could swear that the bible also mentions that if a woman is raped that she would have to marry the rapist.

Well, that explains where Mr. Mephisto came from!

Cotton Mather Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Unless, of course, again, you'd like to state that
> it's OK to pick and choose which parts of the
> Bible you follow.
>
> You are so full of hatred for Christianity that
> you have no objectivity. You know full well that
> Christians profess to believe in the words and
> teachings of Jesus Christ. You cite ancient Jewish
> law to smugly "prove" some point known only to
> yourself, about Christianity. Ok, so the religion
> is not for you. But you have no right to tell
> people whose lives it has changed and to whom it
> gives comfort to that they are deluded, especially
> when all you can come up with are archaic and
> irrelevant proscriptions.

1. Ok, so going JUST by the words and teachings of Jesus Christ, homosexuality is now OK, since, y'know, Jesus never said anything about gay people.

2. Jesus plainly said that he came to fulfill that ancient Jewish law, not abolish it. Go read your Bible.

3. Go read my response about faith to Eliot Ness. Then go fuck yourself for putting words in my mouth.

Cotton Mather Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> All well and good but then why don't you express
> any contempt for the other two parts of the
> Abrahamic trio, Judaism and Islam? You save all
> your bile for Christianity.

Personally, I split my bile up equally between the 3, if that helps. There's enough bile FROM all 3 to fill every toilet in the world, 10 times over.

Good evening to you all,

Thanks so much for your interest in McLean Bible Church. Actually, the teachings of MBC come straight from the Word of our Maker,aka Bible, as best as they understand it. And, part of His Word says "...know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Truly, I wish all of you really knew the truth about MBC, because that would set you free from your hatred and blindness. Regardless, MBC members love you anyway, because that is what the Lord Jesus went to the cross for - to provide THE way to eternal life in heaven and not torment in hell FOREVER!! It's all your decision!

Thanks for listening (reading) and considering where you are going. Don't wait; you may not get another opportunity! Love you all.

Personally, I split my bile up equally between the 3, if that helps. There's enough bile FROM all 3 to fill every toilet in the world, 10 times over.

You shouldn't let things like this get you so upset. What difference to does it really make to you what some stranger believes? As I said earlier, live and let live. It's all pretty meaningless in the final analysis anyway.

Go read my response about faith to Eliot Ness. Then go fuck yourself for putting words in my mouth.

Fuck you too asshole! You are a bilious cretin with serious personality issues, not the least of which is an obvious inferiority complex which manifests itself in your amusing attempts to portray yourself as an intellectual. So fuck you too.

That's another gripe I have: the "it's your decision" bit. It's like telling someone, "Hey, I love you unconditionally, and I want you to believe that. Good? Ok. Now, if you don't do everything I tell you to do from now on, I'm going to shove a red-hot poker straight up your ass."

Christians don't know what's going to happen in the hereafter anymore than the rest of us, but they have faith. I hope they frolic about on clouds with angel wings and gossamer kiss for all eternity, with seventy-two virgins blowing them at the same time. But their religion says, "we do know, and unless you do what we say and give us money, you are fucked."

Here's one: I've been baptized, taken communion, accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior, all that. I still believe that God and Jesus exist somewhere. I probably fuck a little more than I should,and my porn addiction is starting to creep even me out, but I've never killed/raped/intentionally stolen from anyone. I offer to buy homeless people food, I always keep my promises, and am by most standards, an all-around nice guy. According to Jesus, I'm going to Heaven when I die. 'Twas the men that came after him and established his church that said I'm not.

There's a big difference between something being FROM God and being INSPIRED by God. Modern-day miracles and everything that Jesus said falls into the former category; everything else falls into the latter. If you believe the letters that Paul and Timothy wrote are from God, then how do you know that God DIDN'T tell that crazy lady to drown her children? Maybe that's part of his Divine Plan.

And the absolute worst part is, some asshole in the Bible said that I would go to hell and suffer for eternity if I even asked these questions. Fuck that guy.

This post was way longer than it was supposed to be.

Cotton Mather Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You are a bilious cretin
> with serious personality issues, not the least of
> which is an obvious inferiority complex which
> manifests itself in your amusing attempts to
> portray yourself as an intellectual.

Thanks for the diagnosis, Doc. How much do I owe you?

> So fuck you too.

That's a real Christian attitude. Aren't you supposed to be setting the example and asking yourself what Jesus would do?

Here's your proof of a kind and loving God, motherfucker.
Attachments:

Christians who don't agonize about the deformity of the world as we know it, are living in a happy-face dream world.

I'm with Schaeffer when he said that "If Christianity isn't true, then it's a very cruel joke." and that he "could not live in this world" if he thought that it had been created as it now is.

My expressed difference with Dr. Crocker is that I can't imagine arguing "Intelligent Design" without accounting for its catastrophic results -- particularly man's inhumanity to man, and our inevitable death.

Modern science considers Man to be simply energy particles, extended and more complex. Christianity says that Man is more than that, and accounts for the cruelty and the death sentence.

Eliot Ness Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Christians who don't agonize about the deformity
> of the world as we know it, are living in a
> happy-face dream world.
>
> I'm with Schaeffer when he said that "If
> Christianity isn't true, then it's a very cruel
> joke." and that he "could not live in this world"
> if he thought that it had been created as it now
> is.
>

I'm curious then, since this world is nothing compared to hell, how would it be possible to be happy in heaven?

I'm sorry, but I don't understand the logic behind this: Your god is responsible for this cruelity, yet you call him good and worship him?

> My expressed difference with Dr. Crocker is that I
> can't imagine arguing "Intelligent Design" without
> accounting for its catastrophic results --
> particularly man's inhumanity to man, and our
> inevitable death.

Intelligent design also accounts for our motives? I'm not sure what you mean here, can you rephrase?

>
> Modern science considers Man to be simply energy
> particles, extended and more complex. Christianity
> says that Man is more than that, and accounts for
> the cruelty and the death sentence.

And you don't think modern science accounts for cruelty and death?

Also, it seems to me that Christianity is contradicted by the cruelty and death sentence, since it makes an all good god responsible for evil.

Cotton Mather Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You shouldn't let things like this get you so
> upset. What difference to does it really make to
> you what some stranger believes? As I said
> earlier, live and let live. It's all pretty
> meaningless in the final analysis anyway.


There's a big difference what some stranger believes when he/she affects state and federal policies based on what I, and a growing population, feel are fairy tales and superstitions.

Honestly, do you YOU feel comfortable knowing that someone who literally believes in the Noah's Ark story, Adam and Eve, buried golden tablets or some kid at the bottom of a well is making decisions that can affect the whole world?
If so, may I suggest packing up and moving to Iran, Saudi Arabia or Pakistan where you'll be surrounded by like-minded people, such as yourself.

Other than a megalomaniacal maniac, who would even want to be worshipped?

Numbers Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Other than a megalomaniacal maniac, who would even want to be worshipped?

You have made am astute observation ... the God of the Bible has an enormous ego, of which Man's and Satan's are deformed analogues. The ego of God is very much to the forefront in the Old Testament, but is remarkably suppressed by Jesus in the New Testament (who submits to being spat upon, flogged, beaten, and crucified) until after the Resurrection, when even 'doubting Thomas' worships him as "My Lord and my God.".

N.B. that if Christianity is true, then in the past Satan solicited 'worship' from Jesus: "... the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. "All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me." Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only." Matthew 4

N.B. that if Christianity is true, then in the future: "All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast — all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world." Revelation 13

N.B. that 'worship' is very serious stuff: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." Revelation 14

The really tough question to ask is not about 'worship' -- because that is a 'given' in the Bible -- it's the question that Bill Maher asked in 'Religulous': If God is going to destroy Satan, what is he waiting for?

The God of the Bible is totally sovereign, yet states that he is not the author of evil: "You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil; with you the wicked cannot dwell. The arrogant cannot stand in your presence; you hate all who do wrong." Psalm 5

Overseer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> " ... part of [the Bible] says "...know the truth and the truth shall set you free."
> Truly, I wish all of you really knew the truth about MBC, because that would set you free from your hatred and blindness.

1) This sentiment from "Overseer" probably comes from an Elder or Minister at MBC: (English "overseer" = Greek 'episkopos' (ἐπίσκοπος, from "epi" ἐπί "over" and "skopos" σκοπός "seeing").

2) The Biblical context is different: "To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

3) I therefore disagree with Overseer, despite his kind sentiment. One can "know the truth about MBC" and still hate MBC because of its message. Indeed, most of the invective on this forum clearly stems from an intense dislike of MBC's Christian 'cosmology' wherein Man is created and therefore subordinate as well as truly, morally guilty.

4) To be "set free" you have to 'pour contempt on all your pride' and bow the knee both metaphysically and morally to the God of the Bible. "There's the rub" (to quote a Shakespearean cosmological soliloquy about death) ... because fallen Man, like fallen Satan, is nothing if not insubordinate and proud.

5) In fact, Hamlet would do well on this forum: "To die — to sleep. To sleep — perchance to dream: ay, there’s the rub! For in that sleep of death what dreams may come When we have shuffled off this mortal coil, Must give us pause."

to:
Posted by: Father Guido Sarduchi ()
Date: December 20, 2008 11:21PM

I heard through the grapevine Lon Solomon sells absolution vouchers much in the same way the early Catholic church used to. If you pay a certain amount to MBC you in turn receive a grant of absolution for any one of your sins...even the touching of little children.....Hmmm that's funny....I wondered why I saw so many priests attending service at a bible church....

can anyone confirm or deny this???

Answer: No sir
Only Christ can forgive and cleanse people from sin
Thank you for asking

to:
Re: McLean Bible Church
Posted by: Professor Pangloss ()
Date: December 30, 2008 11:56AM

The case for christ was pretty one sided and Strobel does the Atheist side a major disservice by not asking the obvious follow up.

Also, he was not an atheist when he wrote it. He claimed to have been an atheist in his life, this is not the same thing.

Further, he only interviews conservative Christian scholars who agree with his position (I think there is mention of a counter opinion, but no interview, it's been a while since I've read it). Where is an interview with Robert Price, for instance? Burton Mack?

I recommend reading the Empty Tomb or the Verdict Challenged. Strobel's books are getting worse, btw. His case for creation utterly missed the mark and is marching Christians back into the dark ages in terms of science.

Answer:
Sir, The fact that Lee Strobal was a strong atheist, shows that he does know what he is talking about. He is a voice of experience, just as you are a voice of experience of what you currently believe in.

You see: religion is the definition of a belief system, rather that belief system is true or not, and rather it is atheistic or not - all are belief systems, thus all belief systems are some sort of religion-true or not true. And all belief system are based on a form of faith. All human beings always have had faith in something or someone, even if that someone is their own self.
Thank you for sharing.

K Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> reply to previous posting: Posted by: BibleChurch
> ()
> Date: August 19, 2008 07:32AM
>
>
> I heard a radio ad late last night which basically
> said "everyone but us is going to hell". I really
> don't understand how 10,000+ people are suckered
> into joinging this gay-bashing, evolution-hating,
> ideology driven institution, but I certainly feel
> sorry for them.
>
> also, they cause too many traffic hangups on Rt 7
>
> Reply to above: I have some questions and
> comments for you to think about personally.
>
> 1) What do you think of Jesus?
> 2) Who do you think He is?
> 3) Do you believe the Bible is His inerrent Word?
>
> 4) Do you believe there is a Heaven and a Hell?
> 5) Do you believe you are going to Heaven when you
> die? And if so, why?
> 6) If you were to die tonight and stand before God
> and He were to ask you why He should let you in to
> His Heaven, what would you say?
> 7) And if you do not believe in God here on earth,
> or at least do not hold to His teachings in His
> Word for your own personal life, as well, and
> don't like Him or anyone who does believe in Him,
> why would you want to go to Heaven?
> 8) What has happened in your own personal life, or
> in the life of others you know or have known
> personally, which has brought you to the
> conclusions you have now?
>
> Heaven and Hell are real places. If we die and
> don't go to Heaven, then we go to Hell, literally,
> forever.
>
> If we don't want Christ in our lives here on
> earth, then we won't want Him in our lives in
> eternity - which never ends. And in Heaven, those
> who do go there, will be voluntarily praising Him,
> loving Him, loving one another as He wants us to
> do, worshiping Him, singing praises to Him and of
> Him, and so much more - honor which He deserves
> and has 'earned' as our Creator and the One Who
> chose to give His His Son Jesus, Whose earthly
> body perished, but He and His body were raised
> again so that we might have eternal life, and so
> that all those who do choose Him to be their
> Saviour, will be with Him forever.
>
> Those who reject Him and His Word here on earth
> will not go to Heaven. It is only logical to note
> that because if people do not want Him on this
> earth, they won't want Him for eternity, and to be
> in Heaven for eternity, would be like "hell" to
> those who reject Him on earth and for eternity.
>
> As for hating others who do not believe the same
> as the Bible truly teaches - many do not, and none
> should ever do so - Christ does not hate people -
> but does hate sin - in anyone, Christians and
> non-Christians. Why? because as our Creator, He
> also knows everything that will harm and destroy
> those He created and so warns us about these
> matters, no matter what they are. If He did not
> warn us, then that would not be love. He also
> showed us the Way of escape from that which will
> destroy us and one another for time and eternity.
> I know I'm glad He did and does.
>
> And for any who calls themselves a Christian and
> does hate others, repentance is vitally necessary,
> and needs to know Christ and His Word deeply, and
> learn full obedience to Him and trust in Him, then
> Christians can caringly, and unswervingly reach
> out to those who hate the believers and the God
> they say they believe in, as well as His Word.
>
> One more added note to those who say they believe
> in Christ - why so many breakups in marriage, and
> fightings among believers? What kind of witness
> is this? And more?
>
> We are all human, yes, believers in Christ and
> nonbelievers. None are perfect in ourselves and
> never will be. We all do make normal non-sinning,
> mistakes in life, but there is also this matter
> that people do choose to have sinful actions and
> attitudes in life as well - be careful to find out
> what is happening in your lives. Something we all
> must daily do. True Christians must truly stand
> firm and strong in God's truth, but don't
> willingly be obnoxious to others. Is this easy
> for believers and non-believers in Christ? No.
> But believers in Christ have the help of the
> Christ and must always trust Christ for the
> strength, wisdom and love needed to respond
> properly, not react. Others do not have this
> wonderfu help, sadly.
>
> I was on my deathbed a few years back, and it is a
> miracle I'm still here. And so many were there who
> cared, even some who do not believe in Christ.
> They were all wonderful. I'm grateful. Why do I
> mention this? To show that to a point, rather we
> believe in Christ or not, we can reach out,
> without hatred to others who believe differently
> than we do, if we choose to do so, only to a
> point. With Christ, we can go beyond that point
> if we want to, because of the unfailing
> faithfulnes and love of Christ. The choice is
> ours. This is only the beginning.
>
> Biblechurch, no need to be sorry for those who
> know Christ personally, unless there still remains
> a real hatred in some, those, yes, I am saddened,
> but then, so is Christ. If so, then they too must
> learn. But your own comments show hatred. Anyone
> who has hatred in their hearts for a fellow human
> being, will chiefly end up destroying themselves
> first. It does not matter if they believe in
> Christ or not. Look at the world around us, and
> there is ample proof of self-centred hatred toward
> others, and most right now shows up in those who
> do not even begin to claim to know Christ
> personally.
>
> However, Christians, take heed to this warning too
> - if there is hatred in your hearts, it will show
> in your attitudes and actions, and does. This is
> not Christlike at all.
>
> All human beings have a bias for or against
> something. This is normal. But how are we
> exhibiting these bias'? Even Christ is biased and
> discriminatory. He hates the sin and sins that
> will destroy His creation, but He does not hate
> His creation. Again, because He does love us, He
> warns us of what will destroy us and those around
> us. Why should we hate Him because of this? or
> those who seek to tell of His warnings and love as
> well? This does not make sense in and of itself.
> However, again, those who say they are Christians,
> take heed that you are not deliberately reacting
> in manners which push people away from Christ,
> even though some will go away from Him anyway.
> But learn to respond, even sometimes in silence.
> Not always easy, but necessary.
>
> Aside from the above, Biblechurch, you mention the
> traffic tie-ups - actually there is a lot of
> traffic, but it normally runs smoothly. One of
> the worst traffic tie ups I see is at malls, on 95
> and the Beltway, in this area, and other places
> are worse. I'm born and raised here in this area,
> and the worst tie-ups I've seen over the years,
> happen because the traffic lights are not
> synchronized properly, most of the time, no matter
> how many vehicles are or are not on the roads, no
> matter the location. When the traffic lights are
> synchronized, the traffic goes more smoothly, no
> matter the amount of vehicles on the roads, in any
> direction.
>
> The only other traffic tie-ups are due to
> accidents and careless drivers. I know I am not
> the only one who has observed this, yet this is
> rarely taken care of regarding the traffic lights.
> They are rarely ever timed properly for the
> safety of both the vehicles and the pedestrians -
> in all directions, and when it is - it is only
> temporary.
>
> I remember Tyson's Corner when it was only one
> shopping mall. It was a breeze to get through
> there, and safely. Same for 7 Corners, and many
> other locations. Now there are so many careless
> drivers out there, that I truly find it refreshing
> to see the traffic move smoothly around McLean
> Bible Church. Rarely is it otherwise, at least at
> the times I go through there. I've heard the same
> from others.
>
> Just some things to think about and carefully
> consider.
>
> Thank you for sharing your concerns.

Some clarification in the following quote from K (kl):

We are all human, yes, believers in Christ and nonbelievers. None are perfect in ourselves and never will be. We all do make normal non-sinning, mistakes in life, but there is also this matter that people do choose to have sinful actions and attitudes in life as well - be careful to find out what is happening in your lives. Something we all must daily do. True Christians must truly stand firm and strong in God's truth, but don't willingly be obnoxious to others. Is this easy for >believers and non-believers in Christ?<Should read "believers in Christ, and those who do not believe in Christ." No. But believers in Christ have the help of the Christ and must always trust Christ for the strength, wisdom and love needed to respond properly, not react. Others do not have this wonderfu help, sadly.

Yahweh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't exist. Get over it.

Answer:

You are right "yahweh" - you do not exist as the One True God - because you are not He. You are only a human being, created by the One True Yahweh. The same goes for all of God's creation. None could ever be equal with Him or greater than He. Lucifer (now named satan) found that out, and is now brainwashing people into believing they can be equal to or greater than God. Why, because He wants all of God's creation in Hell with him for all eternit
y. People were created in the image of God, and so satan hates God's creation. Image of God? What does this mean?
God is sinless, pure, honorable in every way, loving, caring, unselfish, and so much more - which humans, in themselves, are not, though any resemblance of any of these attributes in anyone, is only because we are created by Him, and it is He Who gave us life and the breath of life.
So much to be grateful for.
Thank you for sharing

Professor Pangloss Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Jonie Wrote: " challenge you to sincerely accept
> Christ as your Savior. it is the only way you will
> find out for youself whether GOD is real or not."
>
> My Response: I've done just that - it didn't help.

Answer:
Professor Pangloss, you sound like a former classmate of mine, and possibly a former high school professor I once had. You sound like you are searching, perhaps sincerely, and have been disappointed.

In reality though, when one truly has begun to know Christ personally, and learn His ways in their life, as God intends, then this will help. The path is not always easy, but oh so precious.
I hope you will seek Him again, and open your heart for His truth. God stated that those who truly seek the truth, will find it, and His truth will make you/us free. - free from within, even in the midst of struggles we go through in our lives, and being human and being on this earth, we do go through struggles, and sometimes far more than just struggles - none ever easy.
But Professor Pangloss, and whomever else is reading - Christ is worth it all.

My heart goes out to you and pray you will someday soon find His truth for yourself. Keep seeking Him. I'm so glad He "seeks" us first. He already knows who we are, and has since before the beginning of time, does now, and always will, yet He loves us still.
Thank you Professor Pangloss, for sharing your heart.

Or what if God as we know Him is really Lucifer (now named Satan), who invented Judaism and Christianity to draw us away from Allah (peace be upon him) and the One True Islamic Faith?

Satan (now named Mephistopheles) is a masterful, cunning deceiver.

RESton Peace Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I would suggest if you want to find out about God,
> you put a loaded gun in your mouth and pull the
> trigger. Unlike a 2000 year old magician, this
> method can tell you through something that is NOT
> conjecture and speculation about whether there is
> a God (based on the same general idea that God is
> met in the hereafter)
>
> The person above me is like every other xtian..
> "accept christ and you will see the light"... they
> never know how fucking stupid they sound, do
> they..... it would be just as easy to accept a
> Quiznos sandwich as my savior, you know, and it
> would "learn me" just as much as reading about
> some dude from ancient times who may or may not
> have been supernatural. That is to say, xtian
> logic never points to anything specific that is
> on-it's-face believable. At least a sandwich can
> taste good, or not, indicating some kind of
> otherworldly awesomeness.

Answer:
RESTon Peace: from the first sentence, it sounds like you, and so many like you, are deeply hurting, and have been hurt in some way or another, and possibly by some who say they are Christians. If this is the case, it is no wonder you feel as you do. Sometimes it sounds like an old cliche, but nevertheless true, Seek the Christ and Who He is, for He never fails us, never has, and never will. Sadly, people will fail, rather they want to or not, simply because we all are human, rather we are Christians or not.
By your first sentence, for starters, it sounds to me like you are very desperate, scared, and perhaps contemplating suicide yourself. Don't do it, for then it will forever be too late for you. There are those who really do care.

And again, to Christians, and there are many out there who really do care, nevertheless, still Christians need to really learn Who Christ really is. He is not any "pie in the sky" being, as He is so much being treated as, in today's climate, and music and so much more. I know I'll be knocked down by referring to the music, but go for it. Many do not understand the roots of the music of today-the heavy duty rock, etc, which is dangerous in more ways than one.
But currently, I'm not here to discuss the music, that will come at a later time, in a different situation.
In the meantime RESTon Peace. I do hope and pray that you too will find true hope in your life, and soon.
Thank you for sharing.

KL: From the first sentence, you epitomized my exact sentiment about christians and their self-loving bullshit. I hope you take my advice and shoot yourself. I hope you leave a large amount of brain matter on the walls, and that your face is blown clean off, so as to prevent a closed casket.

Not that a casket will be needed. You have no family or friends who care about you... you have totally turned yourself over to Jesus Christ, and since he's been dead for almost 2000 years now, he is not available to find your corpse, notify the authorities, and make arrangements months later, when you have finally been identified via a hodgepodge of medical and public records. Your rotting corpse could be fed to dogs, and that would have more attendants than any other funeral your sad life would draw.

Make amends with your so-called savior now, because Jesus Christ can and will sodomize you and all your children in hell. For this I have prayed.

Eliot Ness Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Rectumite Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> --------------
> > I think Elliot Ness must have found Lon
> Solomon's stash!
> >
> > If Solomon is doing it for God's sake alone, why
> take $800,000
> > out of the baskets and live in a $2 million
> dollar house?
> --------------------------------------------------
> ------
>
> 1) Apparently McLean Bible Church does not publish
> the salaries of its 250 employees ... does anyone
> know where the alleged salary $800k figure
> originated?
>
> 2) Fairfax County tax records show that the
> Solomon family's house cost $475k in 1999 (apx.
> $590k in today's dollars) and is now assessed at
> $1.15 million.
>
> Q1: Who controls and audits MBC's finances ... and
> has anybody ever accused MBC of mismanaging
> money?
> Q2: What should Lon Solomon's salary be?
> Q3: How much should Solomon's house be worth, and
> how often should he downsize his housing in order
> to undercut our recent outrageous real estate
> inflation?
> Q4: How many hours-per-week has Solomon worked
> since 1980 when he began at McLean Bible Church?
> What has his average hourly wage been over the
> past 30 years?


Answer: how many hours have you worked? how much is or was your house worth? Look at all the large houses in this area and in many other areas, which do NOT belong to Lon, and which are worth in the billions. How much do you make? Are you in debt because of recklessness with credit cards? That is mismanagement, isn't it? and so on.
And no, their funds are not being mismanaged.
Just something to think about?
Thank you for sharing

kl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Eliot Ness Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Rectumite Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > --------------
> > > I think Elliot Ness must have found Lon
> > Solomon's stash!
> > >
> > > If Solomon is doing it for God's sake alone,
> why
> > take $800,000
> > > out of the baskets and live in a $2 million
> > dollar house?
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > ------
> >
> > 1) Apparently McLean Bible Church does not
> publish
> > the salaries of its 250 employees ... does
> anyone
> > know where the alleged salary $800k figure
> > originated?
> >
> > 2) Fairfax County tax records show that the
> > Solomon family's house cost $475k in 1999 (apx.
> > $590k in today's dollars) and is now assessed
> at
> > $1.15 million.
> >
> > Q1: Who controls and audits MBC's finances ...
> and
> > has anybody ever accused MBC of mismanaging
> > money?
> > Q2: What should Lon Solomon's salary be?
> > Q3: How much should Solomon's house be worth,
> and
> > how often should he downsize his housing in
> order
> > to undercut our recent outrageous real estate
> > inflation?
> > Q4: How many hours-per-week has Solomon worked
> > since 1980 when he began at McLean Bible
> Church?
> > What has his average hourly wage been over the
> > past 30 years?
>
>
> Answer: how many hours have you worked? how much
> is or was your house worth? Look at all the large
> houses in this area and in many other areas, which
> do NOT belong to Lon, and which are worth in the
> billions. How much do you make? Are you in debt
> because of recklessness with credit cards? That is
> mismanagement, isn't it? and so on.
> And no, their funds are not being mismanaged.
> Just something to think about?
> Thank you for sharing


oh yes, how would you like your salary published for the whole world to see?

eyGku Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> re: scam church Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Whoever posted above, you have very inaccurate
> > information. Neither figure is close to being
> > correct, especially his salary.
>
>
> Where can we get better information? We'd be
> interested in the correct numbers.

just something to think about:
what is your salary? How much is your house worth?

kl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> eyGku Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > re: scam church Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Whoever posted above, you have very
> inaccurate
> > > information. Neither figure is close to
> being
> > > correct, especially his salary.
> >
> >
> > Where can we get better information? We'd be
> > interested in the correct numbers.
>
> just something to think about:
> what is your salary? How much is your house
> worth?

and do you wish to share with everyone publicly, what your salary is and what your house is worth? Is this really necessary? for you or for anyone else? Not really.

Even if Lon were rich, there is nothing wrong with being rich. It is hard to be poor yes. Lon has just worked wisely in managing the pay he does get. He has hit hard times like so many of us, too. Life is not any easier for him than it is for the rest of us, though on the surface it may seem like that to many.
Thank you for sharing.

tubby Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mr. H Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I have gone to McLain over 20 years and I still
> > can't find out what the pastor makes. It has
> > always puzzled me why they don't reveal just
> how
> > much the staff does make. We, the members are
> > paying those salaries. What is there to hide?
>
>
> What is there to hide?!?! WTF do you think there
> is to hide?
>
> They don't want you suckers to know about the
> yachts and jets!
>
> If you throw your hard earned money into Solomon's
> (or any of those blow-dried preachers') basket,
> you're worse than a moron.
>
> Not a sermon, just a thought.
>
>
> As for myself, I offer God my entire paycheck....I
> throw it up in the air, and if it comes back and
> hits the ground....I pick it up, God didn't want
> it...


Then what is your salary? Why are you going to McLean if you hate it so much? Or are you there just to cause trouble? That's what it sounds like.
Just posing questions for you to think about and be honest about.

JUST STICK TO GOD Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> RELIGION MAKES NO SENCE! PEOPLE ARE JUST STUCK
> BELIEVING WHAT OTHER PEOPLE HAVE TO SAY. WHICH
> ALOT OF IT IS MADE UP. SOME INFORMATION IS CORRECT
> BUT MOST IS WHAT SOMEBODY SAID YOU HAVE TO DO TO
> GET TO HEAVEN. ALLLLL RELIGION IS THE SAME
> CONCEPT.


No, all religions are not the same. But it is true that many really do simply believe what other people say, without truly seeking to find out for themselves.

So I challenge all who read - take a sincere and honest read throught the entire bible - the OT and the NT - the 16ll King James Version and the Hebrew Scriptures, and sincerely ask God that if He is truly real, that He will reveal Himself and His truth to you. And do this without interjecting other peoples opinions. Let the Bible speak for itself. And then if you have genuine honest questions, go to someone who believes the bible is the literal Word of God - because it is, and that God is Who He says He is - because He is.

If you are really wanting to know, in time, you'll learn the truth firsthand. If you are just pretending, then you won't know until etermity arrives. It is as simple as that.
Honestly seeking the truth about God, is in some ways, no different than seeking the truth in other subject matters.

Thank you for sharing

hey Kl did you have to make 18 different responses and quote people in every single fucking one. I liked christ before- but now i think hes a douche, thanks man.

you can try and rationalize the bible all you want, but the truth is, the bible is the word of MAN. Can you talk to gOD? Can I? If you hear the voice of gOD than i suggest you see a doctor, because you're clearly dilusional.

shut the fuck up KL Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I liked christ before- but now i think hes a
> douche, thanks man.

+1

kl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Answer:
> Sir, The fact that Lee Strobal was a strong
> atheist, shows that he does know what he is
> talking about. He is a voice of experience, just
> as you are a voice of experience of what you
> currently believe in.

No offense, but this is not true. The fact that I was a very strong Christian prior to my deconversion gives me no more authority then the reverse does for Strobel. Arguments are what matter. FURTHER, it is a fact that he was *NOT* an atheist when he started writing that book. Strobel admits to this in the first few pages.


> You see: religion is the definition of a belief
> system, rather that belief system is true or not,
> and rather it is atheistic or not - all are belief
> systems, thus all belief systems are some sort of
> religion-true or not true. And all belief system
> are based on a form of faith. All human beings
> always have had faith in something or someone,
> even if that someone is their own self.
> Thank you for sharing.

I'm not entirely sure i agree with this - I can't see how epistemological skepticism requires 'faith' per say, but this is regardless. Atheism is not a belief system as I think you imply here. It is incorporated into belief systems (as is theism).

> Answer:
> Professor Pangloss, you sound like a former
> classmate of mine, and possibly a former high
> school professor I once had. You sound like you
> are searching, perhaps sincerely, and have been
> disappointed.

That could be a fair estimation - but during the months that my deconversion took, I wouldn't say I was 'searching' per say. I wanted very dearly to be right about God. I just couldn't convince myself. I prayed every day (a few times a day) and deconversion hurt. My bias was to find a reason to believe, which is why I wouldn't characterize myself as searching - since in my mind, searching implies a non bias viewpoint.

> In reality though, when one truly has begun to
> know Christ personally, and learn His ways in
> their life, as God intends, then this will help.
> The path is not always easy, but oh so precious.

The reality is this is what you believe. You cannot demostrate it to be true and as such, I remain unconvinced.

> I hope you will seek Him again, and open your
> heart for His truth. God stated that those who
> truly seek the truth, will find it, and His truth
> will make you/us free. - free from within, even in
> the midst of struggles we go through in our lives,
> and being human and being on this earth, we do go
> through struggles, and sometimes far more than
> just struggles - none ever easy.
> But Professor Pangloss, and whomever else is
> reading - Christ is worth it all.
>
> My heart goes out to you and pray you will someday
> soon find His truth for yourself. Keep seeking
> Him. I'm so glad He "seeks" us first. He already
> knows who we are, and has since before the
> beginning of time, does now, and always will, yet
> He loves us still.
> Thank you Professor Pangloss, for sharing your
> heart.

I disagree with you on many levels here, but you are free to believe as you wish.

> So I challenge all who read - take a sincere and
> honest read throught the entire bible - the OT and
> the NT - the 16ll King James Version and the
> Hebrew Scriptures, and sincerely ask God that if
> He is truly real, that He will reveal Himself and
> His truth to you. And do this without
> interjecting other peoples opinions. Let the
> Bible speak for itself. And then if you have
> genuine honest questions, go to someone who
> believes the bible is the literal Word of God -
> because it is, and that God is Who He says He is -
> because He is.

You didn't write this to me, but I have taken that challenge, twice now, and the second time I did it did a good job of convincing me that Christianity was not true. The problem you are having is that you are looking through the lense of intense faith. You need to approach Christianity as though you were an outsider. Pretend it is Hinduism as best you can, and then see what you make of it.

This is what Winston Churchill had to say about Islam. Now let's watch all the vile Christian haters try to say that Christianity is as bad or worse than Mohammedanism.


How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live.

A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.

Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyzes the social development of those who follow it.

No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome.

I see Islam as no better or worse then Christianity, or for that matter, Judiasm or Hinduism.

I see Islam as no better or worse then Christianity, or for that matter, Judiasm or Hinduism.

Well bully for you.

kl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> just something to think about:
> what is your salary?

I make around 100 quadrillia-billia-jillion/yr (before taxes) for working, not by telling people my interpretation of a book written about a bunch of desert nomads and a jewish zombie.

EDIT: It is literally a metric fuck ton of cash. They have to cart it in via dump truck. I swim around in that shit like Uncle Scrooge.

Bitches.

I also do not receive any tax breaks, government benefits, or any of the other perks that a church enjoys, which is probably why...

> How much is your house worth?

... I rent a one-bedroom apartment for about $1,300 a month, instead of owning a mansion.

Fuck you.

EDIT #6: Fuck you.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 03/09/2010 10:52PM by MrMephisto.

Overseer Wrote:
> Truly, I wish all of you really knew
> the truth about MBC, because that would set you
> free from your hatred and blindness.


The publish the financial documents, Pilate! Let the truth set us free.

We're waiting.

RESton Peace Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> KL: From the first sentence, you epitomized my
> exact sentiment about christians and their
> self-loving bullshit. I hope you take my advice
> and shoot yourself. I hope you leave a large
> amount of brain matter on the walls, and that your
> face is blown clean off, so as to prevent a closed
> casket.
>
> Not that a casket will be needed. You have no
> family or friends who care about you... you have
> totally turned yourself over to Jesus Christ, and
> since he's been dead for almost 2000 years now, he
> is not available to find your corpse, notify the
> authorities, and make arrangements months later,
> when you have finally been identified via a
> hodgepodge of medical and public records. Your
> rotting corpse could be fed to dogs, and that
> would have more attendants than any other funeral
> your sad life would draw.
>
> Make amends with your so-called savior now,
> because Jesus Christ can and will sodomize you and
> all your children in hell. For this I have
> prayed.


Answer: Dear RestonPeace, Thank you so much for replying. I'm saddened though, that you still show so much hatred. I do not hate you, and my first reply is out of a caring heart. You are very much hurting.
As for family and friends who care about me - yes I do have these, and am so grateful for them. You speak about a situation you do not know about. I do not know about yours either, but I am also human, and know what hurting is also, and we all as humans have varying degrees of the same or similar reactions or responses to what we go through in life, and we can choose to react, as you are doing, or pray for and forgive those who oppose us and the world of people whom God loves, including you.
If I were to die, which I almost did a few years ago, and my body went to the dogs, no matter, as my spirit would immediately go in to Heaven with Christ, which I'm so grateful for, not because of me, but because of Christ Himself.

Shoot myself? Sir, that would be self-murder, of which God also speaks out against murder. Murder is hatred. Hatred is rebellion, and according to God, rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft. And a practice of true witchcraft is worship of satan himself, and their hearts are for the death of others. This is murder which is sin.

You know, even if Christ were not real, though He is real, I would rather believe in Him than not do so. I'm grateful He is real. I hope and pray you too will find this to be true, you and many others.
I pray for God's best blessings for you, for now and for ever.
So long for now.

kl Wrote: By the way RESTon Peace (Peace is something I hope you will have one day soon) All people, by nature, are self loving, rather they believe in Christ or not. The difference is, that many who do not believe in Christ don't care if they continue like this. And most true Christians wants that to change in their lives, and it is a growing and learning process, like so many things in life. And a true believer in Christ, if he/she wants to will learn to let Christ change them,and the ways in their lives which are selfish and to become people who lack selfishness, but this can only be by the power and strength of a wonderful loving and patient God. Those who do not know Christ, does not have this strength to draw on.
Again, I pray for God's best blessing for you.
-------------------------------------------------------
> RESton Peace Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > KL: From the first sentence, you epitomized my
> > exact sentiment about christians and their
> > self-loving bullshit. I hope you take my
> advice
> > and shoot yourself. I hope you leave a large
> > amount of brain matter on the walls, and that
> your
> > face is blown clean off, so as to prevent a
> closed
> > casket.
> >
> > Not that a casket will be needed. You have no
> > family or friends who care about you... you
> have
> > totally turned yourself over to Jesus Christ,
> and
> > since he's been dead for almost 2000 years now,
> he
> > is not available to find your corpse, notify
> the
> > authorities, and make arrangements months
> later,
> > when you have finally been identified via a
> > hodgepodge of medical and public records. Your
> > rotting corpse could be fed to dogs, and that
> > would have more attendants than any other
> funeral
> > your sad life would draw.
> >
> > Make amends with your so-called savior now,
> > because Jesus Christ can and will sodomize you
> and
> > all your children in hell. For this I have
> > prayed.
>
>
> Answer: Dear RestonPeace, Thank you so much for
> replying. I'm saddened though, that you still
> show so much hatred. I do not hate you, and my
> first reply is out of a caring heart. You are
> very much hurting.
> As for family and friends who care about me - yes
> I do have these, and am so grateful for them. You
> speak about a situation you do not know about. I
> do not know about yours either, but I am also
> human, and know what hurting is also, and we all
> as humans have varying degrees of the same or
> similar reactions or responses to what we go
> through in life, and we can choose to react, as
> you are doing, or pray for and forgive those who
> oppose us and the world of people whom God loves,
> including you.
> If I were to die, which I almost did a few years
> ago, and my body went to the dogs, no matter, as
> my spirit would immediately go in to Heaven with
> Christ, which I'm so grateful for, not because of
> me, but because of Christ Himself.
>
> Shoot myself? Sir, that would be self-murder, of
> which God also speaks out against murder. Murder
> is hatred. Hatred is rebellion, and according to
> God, rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft. And a
> practice of true witchcraft is worship of satan
> himself, and their hearts are for the death of
> others. This is murder which is sin.
>
> You know, even if Christ were not real, though He
> is real, I would rather believe in Him than not do
> so. I'm grateful He is real. I hope and pray you
> too will find this to be true, you and many
> others.
> I pray for God's best blessings for you, for now
> and for ever.
> So long for now.

MrMephisto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Or what if God as we know Him is really Lucifer
> (now named Satan), who invented Judaism and
> Christianity to draw us away from Allah (peace be
> upon him) and the One True Islamic Faith?
>
> Satan (now named Mephistopheles) is a masterful,
> cunning deceiver.

Answer:
One day soon, all will know who the One true God and Saviour is, One Who loves and cares for all of His creation, yet hates sin.
As for Islam,even Islam recognizes that Jesus lived, and calls Him a prophet, though He is more than just a prophet.

I've also learned from a Muslim, that Islam states that all prophets cannot lie. If this is the case, and Islam states that all prophets do not and cannot lie, and Islam states that Jesus is a prophet, then is He lying when He states that He is God?

However, Islam is not the only religion out there that makes similar claims. Someone speaks the truth and someone isn't. It is up to the individuals to decide what they are going to believe - and in the end when the final Judgement day comes, or a person dies first, then the truth will really be known, regardless of the claims of all people, whomever they are.

All religions are a 'true' faith of some sort, meaning that they truely teach what they believe, including atheism, but are they The True Faith? Only one can be - which is it? That fact is already established, yet it is still up to the individual to decide for themselves what they want to believe. Even then, in the final analysis the truth will be revealed, and yet, already has been.
Thank you most kindly for sharing.

By the way, you are right in this, satan really is a cunning deceiver, so beware of false prophets and teachers.
Again, thank you for sharing.
I too pray for God's best blessing for you and all.

shut the fuck up KL Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> hey Kl did you have to make 18 different responses
> and quote people in every single fucking one. I
> liked christ before- but now i think hes a
> douche, thanks man.


Answer: All the responses are to separate individuals, like this one.
Whom, even though you meant to use 'douche' in a negative way, you obviously don't understand the function of a douche. The function of the douche is to clean out impuritys. And this is what Christ does for us, He cleans out impurities in the lives of people, and makes them whole and clean.
What an interesting comparison.
Thanks, and I pray for God's best for you as well.

Thank you so much, Professor, for replying. I really appreciate your kind approach. This speaks well of you.

You give much to ponder, yet I know in the end, that Christ must be first, and I must continue to learn to let Him be first.

What do you understand Christianity to be?

For me, I understood as a child, from within my very spirit, that He is God, but chose not to let Him be my Saviour for a few years after that. Why was this? One reason is, I understood that He has a standard of perfection, though so far different than the standards of perfection people have for themselves and others. I knew I could never reach that perfection on my own. I had a really bad temper, and though I was taught to love and care for others, I had trouble to some degree learning to forgive and not hate. This was in me, alone. I'm so grateful that my Mom sought to teach me to love God, and to love and care for others and to forgive others who might hurt me, and there were some, even in school who tried to do so, and they did to others as well. I knew I could not make the grade. I knew I could not live up to His standards, certainly not in my own strength. But now, I realize I do not have to, though it still is not always easy, as He gives strength to those who know Him and want Him to change them in to better people, people who truly care for others, beyond our own human capabilities. We are always in a learning state, sometimes failing, but still going forward, for many-I wish all.

Sometimes it is good to try to put ourselves in the shoes of others, in order to try to understand them, if at all possible, so it is important to listen, first, and not criticize, rather the person is Hindu or not. I'd like to try to understand just a little more deeply where you are coming from, if appropriate.

What really is going on inside of you and in your life, at least this is something you seem to be working on anyway. What is your lifestyle? Again the questions are for your thinking through. The public does not need to know every detail about other people, this then would become gossip, and this too is sin.

Usually a person's lifestyle will dictate what a person ends up believing.

As for atheism - it is a belief system, because this is what many people do believe in. As for Lee Strobel, what I was sharing is that since he had been an atheist before, he could draw upon experiences in his life before he became a believer in Christ.
Professor, you stated you once were a strong Christian but now you aren't. You are drawing upon your own experiences of the past, with what you understand Christianity to be.

We all have experiences - past present, and eventually future, which then will become present, and then in the past.

You give some good challenges to me too, Professor, and gratefully, challenges which encourage me to seek deeper in to God's Word for His truth and to want to get to know Him better, yet also, to learn to hear and care for others more deeply.

I need to close for now, but hope to continue our discussion (and I'm glad this is a discussion), My former professor in high school was also a preacher, though he did not believe that Jesus is God. He loved the Bible as literature, and believed it should be taught in the schools, as literature. It did not bother him, though, that if anyone, in reading it started believing it, he felt that that person had the right to, and he was right. Strange, he was a preacher, as well as an English teacher, and yet almost atheistic in his leanings, or at least agnostic. But you know, I liked him, and was glad he was my English teacher. His questions and comments were challenging, and he was kind with it. I often wonder where he is now, and what he is doing. I sure hope all is well with him.

You remind me a little of that English teacher, and sir, this is a complement.

Gratefully,
kl
==============================

Professor Pangloss Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> kl Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Answer:
> > Sir, The fact that Lee Strobal was a strong
> > atheist, shows that he does know what he is
> > talking about. He is a voice of experience,
> just
> > as you are a voice of experience of what you
> > currently believe in.
>
> No offense, but this is not true. The fact that I
> was a very strong Christian prior to my
> deconversion gives me no more authority then the
> reverse does for Strobel. Arguments are what
> matter. FURTHER, it is a fact that he was *NOT*
> an atheist when he started writing that book.
> Strobel admits to this in the first few pages.
>
>
> > You see: religion is the definition of a belief
> > system, rather that belief system is true or
> not,
> > and rather it is atheistic or not - all are
> belief
> > systems, thus all belief systems are some sort
> of
> > religion-true or not true. And all belief
> system
> > are based on a form of faith. All human beings
> > always have had faith in something or someone,
> > even if that someone is their own self.
> > Thank you for sharing.
>
> I'm not entirely sure i agree with this - I can't
> see how epistemological skepticism requires
> 'faith' per say, but this is regardless. Atheism
> is not a belief system as I think you imply here.
> It is incorporated into belief systems (as is
> theism).
>
> > Answer:
> > Professor Pangloss, you sound like a former
> > classmate of mine, and possibly a former high
> > school professor I once had. You sound like
> you
> > are searching, perhaps sincerely, and have been
> > disappointed.
>
> That could be a fair estimation - but during the
> months that my deconversion took, I wouldn't say I
> was 'searching' per say. I wanted very dearly to
> be right about God. I just couldn't convince
> myself. I prayed every day (a few times a day)
> and deconversion hurt. My bias was to find a
> reason to believe, which is why I wouldn't
> characterize myself as searching - since in my
> mind, searching implies a non bias viewpoint.
>
> > In reality though, when one truly has begun to
> > know Christ personally, and learn His ways in
> > their life, as God intends, then this will help.
>
> > The path is not always easy, but oh so
> precious.
>
> The reality is this is what you believe. You
> cannot demostrate it to be true and as such, I
> remain unconvinced.
>
> > I hope you will seek Him again, and open your
> > heart for His truth. God stated that those who
> > truly seek the truth, will find it, and His
> truth
> > will make you/us free. - free from within, even
> in
> > the midst of struggles we go through in our
> lives,
> > and being human and being on this earth, we do
> go
> > through struggles, and sometimes far more than
> > just struggles - none ever easy.
> > But Professor Pangloss, and whomever else is
> > reading - Christ is worth it all.
> >
> > My heart goes out to you and pray you will
> someday
> > soon find His truth for yourself. Keep seeking
> > Him. I'm so glad He "seeks" us first. He
> already
> > knows who we are, and has since before the
> > beginning of time, does now, and always will,
> yet
> > He loves us still.
> > Thank you Professor Pangloss, for sharing your
> > heart.
>
> I disagree with you on many levels here, but you
> are free to believe as you wish.
>
> > So I challenge all who read - take a sincere
> and
> > honest read throught the entire bible - the OT
> and
> > the NT - the 16ll King James Version and the
> > Hebrew Scriptures, and sincerely ask God that
> if
> > He is truly real, that He will reveal Himself
> and
> > His truth to you. And do this without
> > interjecting other peoples opinions. Let the
> > Bible speak for itself. And then if you have
> > genuine honest questions, go to someone who
> > believes the bible is the literal Word of God -
> > because it is, and that God is Who He says He is
> -
> > because He is.
>
> You didn't write this to me, but I have taken that
> challenge, twice now, and the second time I did it
> did a good job of convincing me that Christianity
> was not true. The problem you are having is that
> you are looking through the lense of intense
> faith. You need to approach Christianity as
> though you were an outsider. Pretend it is
> Hinduism as best you can, and then see what you
> make of it.

kl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thank you so much, Professor, for replying. I
> really appreciate your kind approach. This speaks
> well of you.

Thank you. You have been cordial as well.

> You give much to ponder, yet I know in the end,
> that Christ must be first, and I must continue to
> learn to let Him be first.
>
> What do you understand Christianity to be?

Were you to ask me this a decade or so ago, I would have a ready answer - something close to a fundamentalist's approximation. Today though, I'm not sure I can give a clear and cut explanation. I understand Christianity to be a religion - a set of beliefs that a portion of the population holds true. These beliefs are supposed to influence the individual in the way they live and how they act. These beliefs are the lense in which they view the world. Outside of that very general definition, I'm afraid it becomes a lot more muddled.

> For me, I understood as a child, from within my
> very spirit, that He is God, but chose not to let
> Him be my Saviour for a few years after that. Why
> was this? One reason is, I understood that He has
> a standard of perfection, though so far different
> than the standards of perfection people have for
> themselves and others. I knew I could never reach
> that perfection on my own. I had a really bad
> temper, and though I was taught to love and care
> for others, I had trouble to some degree learning
> to forgive and not hate. This was in me, alone.
> I'm so grateful that my Mom sought to teach me to
> love God, and to love and care for others and to
> forgive others who might hurt me, and there were
> some, even in school who tried to do so, and they
> did to others as well. I knew I could not make
> the grade. I knew I could not live up to His
> standards, certainly not in my own strength. But
> now, I realize I do not have to, though it still
> is not always easy, as He gives strength to those
> who know Him and want Him to change them in to
> better people, people who truly care for others,
> beyond our own human capabilities. We are always
> in a learning state, sometimes failing, but still
> going forward, for many-I wish all.

When you write this it makes me think of Freud's idea that god was basically a substitute for a parent or father figure. It seems odd for me to view God in this way, as God could not possess these attributes in any way feasibly known to human beings. I also reject the idea of perfection. What is perfection? How do you objectively define it?

What is your opinion of the proximity between your view of God and that of a father figure? Does this disturb you?

> Sometimes it is good to try to put ourselves in
> the shoes of others, in order to try to understand
> them, if at all possible, so it is important to
> listen, first, and not criticize, rather the
> person is Hindu or not. I'd like to try to
> understand just a little more deeply where you are
> coming from, if appropriate.

I can appreciate that.

> What really is going on inside of you and in your
> life, at least this is something you seem to be
> working on anyway. What is your lifestyle? Again
> the questions are for your thinking through. The
> public does not need to know every detail about
> other people, this then would become gossip, and
> this too is sin.

I would say nothing unusual, really. I have a wife and child and I haven't ever really done anything that would be considered all that bad. The only thing that tends to separate me from my friends is that I go through periods where I am intensely interested in something. I research and study it - sometimes for years. The intensity eventually subsides and is replaced. For the past decade, or so, I have been interested in religion and philosophy.

> Usually a person's lifestyle will dictate what a
> person ends up believing.

I'm not sure about that. I think the methods from which we reason and/or were raised dictate what a person believes. For example, the vast majority of people share their parent's religion. This disturbed me as a believer, and I would often wonder why *I* had been so lucky to have been born in the correct religion.

I'm curious - if you were born into hinduism, do you think you would be a Christian today?

> As for atheism - it is a belief system, because
> this is what many people do believe in. As for
> Lee Strobel, what I was sharing is that since he
> had been an atheist before, he could draw upon
> experiences in his life before he became a
> believer in Christ.

I strongly disagree with this. Atheism, and for that matter theism, is not a belief system. They are positions on whether or not God exists. Belief systems have distinct epistemologies and ways of viewing the world - these cannot be ascertained from knowing whether or not someone is an atheist.

To use a loose example; there are supernaturalistic atheists as well as naturalistic ones (same for theists).

I suppose I thought you were trying to establish credibility for Strobel simply because he was an atheist. My objection would be off target here.

> Professor, you stated you once were a strong
> Christian but now you aren't. You are drawing
> upon your own experiences of the past, with what
> you understand Christianity to be.

Yes, however I wasn't arguing that my experience led any credibility to my arguments. This is the distinction I was trying to make.

> We all have experiences - past present, and
> eventually future, which then will become present,
> and then in the past.
>
> You give some good challenges to me too,
> Professor, and gratefully, challenges which
> encourage me to seek deeper in to God's Word for
> His truth and to want to get to know Him better,
> yet also, to learn to hear and care for others
> more deeply.

I'm curious - I suppose you believe in what amounts to an 'unknowable God', correct?

If this is the case, then what does it mean to say you want to get to know Him better? If you can, by definition, never really know God, then wouldn't that mean that everything you currently think you know about God is wrong? If it's not, how would you know?

> I need to close for now, but hope to continue our
> discussion (and I'm glad this is a discussion), My
> former professor in high school was also a
> preacher, though he did not believe that Jesus is
> God. He loved the Bible as literature, and
> believed it should be taught in the schools, as
> literature.

I have no problem with that - in fact, I like the idea of having a 'religious studies' course or three for students to study religions. I think it would go a long way towards tolerance.

>It did not bother him, though, that
> if anyone, in reading it started believing it, he
> felt that that person had the right to, and he was
> right. Strange, he was a preacher, as well as an
> English teacher, and yet almost atheistic in his
> leanings, or at least agnostic. But you know, I
> liked him, and was glad he was my English teacher.
> His questions and comments were challenging, and
> he was kind with it. I often wonder where he is
> now, and what he is doing. I sure hope all is
> well with him.
>
> You remind me a little of that English teacher,
> and sir, this is a complement.
>
> Gratefully,
> kl
> ==============================


I do take that as a compliment and thank you for engaging in this conversation with me.

I love to discuss religion with people in a civilized manner, but it's almost impossible when every response is along the lines of, "Whatever, Christianity is the only real faith, suck the pipe."

I love to discuss religion with people in a civilized manner, but it's almost impossible when every response is along the lines of, "Whatever, Christianity is the only real faith, suck the pipe."

Or when every response is "Christianity is superstitious nonsense for the dim-witted." Which all goes to show the ultimate futility of discussing matters of faith.

Cotton Mather Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I love to discuss religion with people in a
> civilized manner, but it's almost impossible when
> every response is along the lines of, "Whatever,
> Christianity is the only real faith, suck the
> pipe."
>
> Or when every response is "Christianity is
> superstitious nonsense for the dim-witted." Which
> all goes to show the ultimate futility of
> discussing matters of faith.


frankly, discussing anything with dim-wits who push superstitious nonsense is a futile exercise - time to take away those nice little tax and development advantages which make pushing this outdated junk so attractive

frankly, discussing anything with dim-wits who push superstitious nonsense is a futile exercise - time to take away those nice little tax and development advantages which make pushing this outdated junk so attractive

Or trying to discuss anything with hate-filled,intolerant bigots like you.

Cotton Mather Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> frankly, discussing anything with dim-wits who
> push superstitious nonsense is a futile exercise -
> time to take away those nice little tax and
> development advantages which make pushing this
> outdated junk so attractive
>
> Or trying to discuss anything with
> hate-filled,intolerant bigots like you.

Its very simple - you can either look around you and see how the world actually works using the tried and trusted scientific method - or you can spout random bits of scripture

Faith only works where there are reasonable unexplained gaps to fill - they've all gone. We have very good consistent explanations for observed phenomena at the level of the cosmos, the quanta and the mind, across timescales from femto-second to the age of the universe - with a reasonable expectation that our understanding and models will continue to improve - there's no dark cupboard left a creator or a personal god, or any dark spaces under the bed for monsters and demons.

Its not bigotry to point out that science and religion are no longer compatible,

Its time that we stopped pandering to outdated superstitions and giving special exemptions to the institutions that have grown up around them

If religion had no damaging impacts on individuals and society, it wouldn't be worth bothering with, but it does.

There is no god, the world is more than 6000 years old, dinosaurs weren't planted to confuse us and the grand canyon wasn't cut in a day - move on

I'm in NY for the weekend ... have just begun trying to catch up with the recent posts here ... wish that everybody would edit the carriage returns out of quotations so that this forum could be more h o r i z o n t a l
and
less
vertical.

Numbers Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Honestly, do you YOU feel comfortable knowing that someone who literally believes in the Noah's Ark story, Adam and Eve, buried golden tablets [Mormons/Joseph Smith] or some kid at the bottom of a well [Islam/the occulted 12th imam] is making decisions that can affect the whole world?

1) You're right ... Christianity stands or falls on the historicity of the Bible.

2) Hence the intense interest and online debate about the Genesis Flood (e.g., Dr. Walter Brown's site).

3) Those who believe in an historical Adam and Eve, and Genesis Flood ... subscribe to Christian ethics -- Jesus' command to love your neighbor as yourself.

4) Historically, those inspired by Darwin's 'vision' (specifically National Socialists and Communists) have slaughtered millions -- absurdly, meaninglessly, without responsibility -- in a universe condemned to an entropy-inevitable heat death.

5) So yeah, I'd absolutely rather have a conscience-bound Christian "in charge" rather than a 'visionary' who is willing to slaughter to achieve a Master Race or Classless Society or Global Caliphate.

Eliot Ness Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Numbers Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Honestly, do you YOU feel comfortable knowing
> that someone who literally believes in the Noah's
> Ark story, Adam and Eve, buried golden tablets or
> some kid at the bottom of a well is making
> decisions that can affect the whole world?
>
> 1) You're right ... Christianity stands or falls
> on the historicity of the Bible.
>
> 2) Hence the intense interest and online debate
> about the Genesis Flood (e.g., Dr. Walter Brown's
> site).
>
> 3) Those who believe in an historical Adam and
> Eve, and Genesis Flood ... subscribe to Christian
> ethics -- Jesus' command to love your neighbor as
> yourself.
>
> 4) Historically, those inspired by Darwin's
> 'vision' (specifically National Socialists and
> Communists) have slaughtered millions -- absurdly,
> meaninglessly, without responsibility -- in a
> universe condemned to an entropy-inevitable heat
> death.
>
> 5) So yeah, I'd absolutely rather have a
> conscience-bound Christian "in charge" rather than
> a 'visionary' who is willing to slaughter to
> achieve a Master Race or Classless Society or
> Global Caliphate.
>

That's such a dumb-ass line of reasoning its not even funny

The proportion of the worlds population slaughtered at each stage in history is by far dominated by religious believers - including the Greeks, the Romans, the Persians, the carnage of medieval Europe, the crusades, the British empire, the French empire, the Portuguese Empire, the Inquisition, the Spanish invasion of South America, the American war in Indochina, the Iran-Iraq war etc etc - I guess the difference is that they claimed that their reason was because god told them it was okay

People kill people - regularly and in huge numbers - end of story

Linking a belief in science with being a Nazi or a Communist is a particularly vile and unfounded accusation straight out of the 1950s or the Reagan era - or the playbook unthinking ant-antisemitism - with no justification whatsoever. I'd waver that a smaller percentage of people who believe in science were ever nazis or communists than religious believers who thought it was okay to slaughter their religious rivals or anyone of a different skin color.

Similarly trying to link scientists with religious maniacs of another persuasion attempting a Caliphate is the most bizarre suggestion

And honestly, YES, I do feel more than uncomfortable having anyone who believe is biblical literalism in charge of anything

Frankly, your thinking is so bizarrely stuck in the middle ages, its amazing

> 2) Hence the intense interest and online debate
> about the Genesis Flood (e.g., Dr. Walter Brown's
> site).

Its not a real debate - its an 'angels-on-a-pin-head' farce of religious extremists.

Take a metro to the Smithsonian and see the Burgess Shale if you want to look at the real timeline


> 1) You're right ... Christianity stands or falls
> on the historicity of the Bible.
>


and hence its fallen

Pangloss wrote: Freud's idea [was] that god was basically a substitute for a parent or father figure. It seems odd for me to view God in this way, as God could not possess these attributes in any way feasibly known to human beings.

You're omitting the word "fabricated" from Freud's view.

The "father" metaphor is everywhere in the Bible, and is used by Jesus and God to describe their relationship. ("This is my beloved Son. Hear ye him.")

Goddess worship, and the "mother" metaphor, are non-Christian. Intriguingly, Roman Catholicism has progressively elevated Jesus' mother Mary to god-like status ... despite the fact that she plays only a small role in the NT after Jesus' birth, and disappears from history after Acts Chapter 1.

It's dogmatic to assert that "God could not possess these attributes in any way feasibly known to human beings."

Why couldn't a personal God communicate his 'attributes' to his creatures in human language? (It is an Eastern religion presupposition that God is unknowable and "could not" do so.)

Jesus' view of Scripture is precisely that a personal God communicated with his personal creatures in human language -- in Hebrew to Moses and the Prophets.

Jesus also told his disciples that if they have seen him, they have seen God (specifically, "the Father"),

Paul's view of Scripture was the same as Jesus' ... "pasa graphe theopneustos" ... all scripture is god-breathed.

In fact, the word 'prophet' means 'spokesman' rather than future-predictor. (pro=for, phemein=speak) Prophets sometimes described the future (as it is known to God), but more importantly they spoke human words to human beings as given to them by God.